Cant have it both ways

[dragynfly0515]

Hello everyone! Im new to this forum. I came here in search of people who could explain to me why they believe in god/gods.

To me it is completely ridiculous to blindly follow something just because someone 2000 years ago said, "yes this is the right way to live"

Another absolutely ridiculous belief is the belief in the 7 deadly sins. These are almost impossible for a person NOT to feel in almost every day life.

I agree with what you said about revealed religions and following someone blindly. I have rethought my entire spirituality to make it based on my observations. The idea of a monotheistic, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god does not coincide with the reality I see around me.
My current model calls for a relatively disinterested creator god who may be interested in the working of the universe as a whole, but has no interest in any particular organism or person. However, my model allows for non-omnipotent beings of both benevolent and malevolent intent that may be interested in humans, whose relationships may be worth cultivating. This model allows for evolution and cosmic evil.
I agree with you about the 7 deadly sins. In Satanism they are not to be repressed but expressed, and can with practice be brought into a dynamic equilibrium, where one sin counters the effects of another sin. Ex- Pride in appearance keeping the effects of Gluttony in check.

As far as swaying you, Satanists do not proselytize. Satan encourages freedom of thought and expression.

:candle:
Blessed be
Crys

 

[Quagmire]

The Bible isn't a book, it's a collection (or maybe more accurately a selection) of books; written by different people in different ages and, to a considerable extent, professing different theological perspectives.

The idea that you have to either accept the Bible (as the infallible word of God) or reject it (as primitive superstition) whole cloth is a minority view even among Christians.

 

[imaginaryme]

Hey kids, what time is it?
It's slay the atheist time!

So many targets, so little axe. Let us turn to scripture - Ecclesiastes 2:24 -
A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, who can eat or find enjoyment?

NIV. What say you, atheist? Eating and drinking and enjoying your job, I mean; is there better advice? How can one honestly argue against this simple philosophy? What, what was that? Second sentence? Ain't no second sentence. The Bible is cake. How do you think there are things like sects and Bible study arising from the word of god? Ain't nothing wrong with the word of god; it's just that the minds of men are separate from one another. It's a question of resonance. Certain passages resonate more with certain individuals than others. For instance, there's always something in Ecclesiastes to deal with fundies; regardless of where said fundamentalism arises.

To further help in your re-education, let me state unequivocally that I do not believe in evolution. I accept the theory of evolution and I accept the fact of evolution, but I am not an evolutionary biologist, I am a mathematician. Unfortunately, I may have inadvertently kilt atheism. (Or, at least "strong" atheism; and it should take years for this little mishap to filter through the scientific community.) So, there's plenty of time for me to help you understand the error of your ways - so that you can become a better atheist, of course.

Clarity. Focus. Precision. Understanding. I understand the anger that the sheep inspire, and so does god. That's why Ecclesiastes is only six pages long. The fundies want to proclaim that the book represents "a life without god." Wrong. Yep, just me; versus all the fundies, and a thousand years of Bible study. Don't matter a whit to me what others believe, for I use the scientific method. What are the first three words in this particular book? Everything is meaningless. What does that mean? Before one sits down to do science, one ideally clears one's head of errata; allowing everything to become meaningless, before one makes the first meaningful observation.

Science is about what works. Bible works just fine; I simply ignore things that do not apply. (Easy, I just flipped it.) Daniel 9:3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes,
NIV. Not me. Sackcloth? Ashes? Probably safe to assume these conditions of appeal are no longer valid necessities. Let me tell you a secret. The Bible can simultaneously be the entirely valid word of god, and a collection of ancient, irrelevant folklore. How does this magic work? When one looks into the Bible with faith, one can find only truth. When one speaks out from the Bible with false righteousness, one speaks out the side of one's neck. See, Danny up there ain't so much untrue as outdated. Happens. One book, thousands of years, billions of people... just take the truth you need, leave the rest.

What truth does an atheist need from the Bible? Seven sins were mentioned, one of which seems totally ridiculous - pride. These days, being without pride is like living out of a cardboard box in dirty clothes. So, when the dusty old codger includes a condition essential for sustenance; the double-talk is actually a clarification. Ain't no burning, ain't no deadly, ain't no sin; these things are warnings, yet the dangers are so deep and insidious, they benefit from divine codification. Your pride led you in here - just to get smacked up - and if you put aside said pride for a moment, you can learn something. Cause next time you mouth off - I'll have a whole new argument.
NIV

 

[S-word]

Hey kids, what time is it?
It's slay the atheist time!

So many targets, so little axe. Let us turn to scripture - Ecclesiastes 2:24 -
A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, who can eat or find enjoyment?

NIV. What say you, atheist? Eating and drinking and enjoying your job, I mean; is there better advice? How can one honestly argue against this simple philosophy? What, what was that? Second sentence? Ain't no second sentence. The Bible is cake. How do you think there are things like sects and Bible study arising from the word of god? Ain't nothing wrong with the word of god; it's just that the minds of men are separate from one another. It's a question of resonance. Certain passages resonate more with certain individuals than others. For instance, there's always something in Ecclesiastes to deal with fundies; regardless of where said fundamentalism arises.

To further help in your re-education, let me state unequivocally that I do not believe in evolution. I accept the theory of evolution and I accept the fact of evolution, but I am not an evolutionary biologist, I am a mathematician. Unfortunately, I may have inadvertently kilt atheism. (Or, at least "strong" atheism; and it should take years for this little mishap to filter through the scientific community.) So, there's plenty of time for me to help you understand the error of your ways - so that you can become a better atheist, of course.

Clarity. Focus. Precision. Understanding. I understand the anger that the sheep inspire, and so does god. That's why Ecclesiastes is only six pages long. The fundies want to proclaim that the book represents "a life without god." Wrong. Yep, just me; versus all the fundies, and a thousand years of Bible study. Don't matter a whit to me what others believe, for I use the scientific method. What are the first three words in this particular book? Everything is meaningless. What does that mean? Before one sits down to do science, one ideally clears one's head of errata; allowing everything to become meaningless, before one makes the first meaningful observation.

Science is about what works. Bible works just fine; I simply ignore things that do not apply. (Easy, I just flipped it.) Daniel 9:3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes,
NIV. Not me. Sackcloth? Ashes? Probably safe to assume these conditions of appeal are no longer valid necessities. Let me tell you a secret. The Bible can simultaneously be the entirely valid word of god, and a collection of ancient, irrelevant folklore. How does this magic work? When one looks into the Bible with faith, one can find only truth. When one speaks out from the Bible with false righteousness, one speaks out the side of one's neck. See, Danny up there ain't so much untrue as outdated. Happens. One book, thousands of years, billions of people... just take the truth you need, leave the rest.

What truth does an atheist need from the Bible? Seven sins were mentioned, one of which seems totally ridiculous - pride. These days, being without pride is like living out of a cardboard box in dirty clothes. So, when the dusty old codger includes a condition essential for sustenance; the double-talk is actually a clarification. Ain't no burning, ain't no deadly, ain't no sin; these things are warnings, yet the dangers are so deep and insidious, they benefit from divine codification. Your pride led you in here - just to get smacked up - and if you put aside said pride for a moment, you can learn something. Cause next time you mouth off - I'll have a whole new argument.
NIV

I am very wary when quoting from the Book of Ecclesiastes.

The book of Sirach, which is to be found in the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, coupled together with the book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews, ‘Mashal’ means Similitude, parable, or proverb.----- In the book of sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, “By thy songs, parables, dark speeches, and satires, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc. A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off. Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles. Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of proverbs, his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes without realizing that here is the satirical work of Solomon, aimed at those who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.

 

[MissAlice]

Looking through this thread, no wonder I stick to agnosticism...

OT makes blunt generalizations about people of faith and then people make blunt generalizations about atheists and then it's like one of them holy wars...The Good vs. The Bad.

Anyway welcome to RF but keep in mind not everyone who has faith in anything is blind about what they're doing and many people of faith have incorporated science. But I do sympathize in the frustration of religionists that don't "believe" in science since it doesn't really take a belief system to point out what's evident in front of them.

 

[imaginaryme]

I am very wary when quoting from the Book of Ecclesiastes.

The book of Sirach, which is to be found in the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, coupled together with the book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews, ‘Mashal’ means Similitude, parable, or proverb.----- In the book of sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, “By thy songs, parables, dark speeches, and satires, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc. A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off. Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles. Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of proverbs, his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes without realizing that here is the satirical work of Solomon, aimed at those who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.

The words say wary, yet more words follow... what is faith without works? A chasing after the wind.

But the dead know nothing... know... nothing. Really ain't no need for the other sixty three books. Self-similar over a single degree of magnitude... and all the experts are wrong, for the math proves itself.

 

[S-word]

The words say wary, yet more words follow... what is faith without works? A chasing after the wind.

But the dead know nothing... know... nothing. Really ain't no need for the other sixty three books. Self-similar over a single degree of magnitude... and all the experts are wrong, for the math proves itself.

But the dead know nothing say those who cannot accept the resurrection of this universal body which will descend into the seemingly bottomless pit (Black Hole) where it will be condensed into the infinitely hot, infinitely dense and infinitesimally small singularity from which we originated and from which we will live again in the next resurrection when the singularity will be torn asunder for the foundation of the new universal body which will be the resurrection of this world in its eternal process of evolution.

You are not chasing after the wind you are blowing out a wind comprised of senseless and meaningless words.

 

[Gharib]

Hello everyone! Im new to this forum. I came here in search of people who could explain to me why they believe in god/gods. And possibly sway me. If i could be swayed to a religion that would be incredible.

To me it is completely ridiculous to blindly follow something just because someone 2000 years ago said, "yes this is the right way to live"

welcome to RF Atheisttillprovenwrong.
just to get started friend, i think you are the one who is contradicting yourself.

your question regarding why people believe in god is like asking why do people believe they die? science cannot prove either. yet they both are real and exist.

no one can sway you to accept any religion, thats up to you. are you open minded and are willing to really accept a religion and god, if so then ask god to guide you.

religion isn't a blind belief, if you think it is then so is science. it is rediculous to blindly follow some guy who says there is no air in space.

And the idea of science and religion going hand in hand is also completely asinine. You cant have it both ways. You cant pick and choose which parts of the bible you like and which ones you dont, it doesnt work like that.

why do you say religion and science cannot go hand in hand?
the great contribution the scholars of islam made to science was all due to the words "read in the name of your lord who created" quran 96:1.
there is nothing to pick and choose in religion, you either accept it all or you don't.

Religons were created in a time when we didnt have good scientific procedure and religion was a convenient way to answer alot of the questions that couldnt be answered back then cause there was no scientific process.

alright then, prove that god doesn't exist.
if religion is a result of people having some sort of answer to their unanswerable questions, then how do you explain religion these days? sure everyone has all their questions answered, science has answers to everything, so why can't it prove that god doesn't exist or whether we have a soul or not? why do we die?

It is a proven fact that people are afraid of the unknown. Religion seems to be an extremely convenient way of answering the question of what happens to us after death. Its also an easy way to control the masses. If you tell people that if they dont abide by these rules, which by all means are man made rules, then they are going to burn for all eternity in hell.

can i see the evidence that says people fear the unknown. everyone believes there are aliens but seems to me that no one gives a damn about it, no one knows much about aliens and no one is affraid. what religion teaches is correct, if you don't abide by the rules of god you will go to hell. if you do not abide by the rules of your country/society you will go to prison. same thing, isn't it?

Another absolutely ridiculous belief is the belief in the 7 deadly sins. These are almost impossible for a person NOT to feel in almost every day life. It was a way for the church to keep people feeling ashamed and to keep them down. I ask religious people questions some times to see if they contradict themselves in there beliefs. Why would you believe in christianity if you are commiting sins? You are knowingly condemming yourself to hell by doing this.

sorry i'm not a christian, don't know much about the 7 deadly sins. they seem deadly, they must be horrible.

Like there are countless numbers of "christian" girls these day who lie, cheat, steal, have sex before marriage, and all sorts of things, but then claim to be christian. Thats completely retarded.

have you heard of the word repent?
Allah says if a searvent turns to me in repentance i shall forgive him, but ofcourse one must refrain from commiting the same sin over and over, but nontheless god is meciful and forgiving, we have no one to turn for forgiveness appart from him.

It just seems to me that religion was basically science back then, and now that we have real science, its time for people to stop believeing in fairy tales.

i did say you are contradicting yourself. first you ask to be swayed into a religion, then you say religion is a fairy tale. i'm sure science has answeres to this.

Another thing i have a big problem with is when religious people start talking bad about evolution. If you do not believe in evolution, then you believe that we are exactly the same now as we were in the beginning of time. Which is absolutely not true, we have fossil evidence of early people the PROVES we have changed since then. Just because we dont have ONE skeleton to complete the chain doesnt mean a damn thing.

well you know a dog and a wolf are pretty similar, so who evolved out of who?
and why are you denying the powers of god, what if he created many species similar to each other but none evolved into something else. science can't prove either, there are missing chains in evolution for it to be true.
since when did scientists become religious? i thought we weren't soposed to accept anything unless there was clear evidence. there aren't clear evidence for evolution but many scientists BELIEVE evolution is correct and they BELIEVE that some of the missing fossils will be found. if there are no fossils then evolution is not real for the time being, science works on evidence, so if the evidence isn't there. we don't just BELIEVE things are this way or that way.

I also have another question for all the Christians. Christianity is a relatively new religion. So what happened to the people for all the thousands of years before christianity?

yeah good question , christians say that those who never accepted the lord will go to hell, so what happens to those people that lived before Jesus (as) appeard?

 

[skydivephil]

Hi Eselam
I think there are a number of problems with your arguments.


"your question regarding why people believe in god is like asking why do people believe they die? science cannot prove either."


You compare belief in god to a belief in dying. But we can all agree people die, we have easily verifiable evidence for that, as long as we agree on a definition of dying (the ending of biological function of a living organism). the same cannot be said for god.


"religion isn't a blind belief, if you think it is then so is science. it is rediculous to blindly follow some guy who says there is no air in space"

The difference is that we can verify there is no air in space. We can all do this even without going into space. We can climb a mountain and experience the lowering of atmospheric pressure levels as height increases, we can observe the lack of friction in celestial bodies. Furthermore one can attempt to get a scientific paper published, you'll see very quickly that they demand very rigorous evidence before they will publish anything new. People don't just get to make claims without their peer testing them. Peer review leads to more substantial statements than religious dogma. So the two are not comparable at all. Try and get the claim that there is air in space publishhed in a serious scientific journal then come back to us.


"alright then, prove that god doesn't exist."
If I claim I have the ghost of Julius Caesar sitting next to me could you prove I don't? One cant prove a negative that doesn't mean the claim that I have Julius Cesar's ghost sitting next to me can be treated symmetrically to the claim that I don't. No one should believe my claim unless I bring forth good evidence. For me to say one cant prove the ghost isn't there is just silly. As is your claim about god. You claim something exists so the burden of evidence is on you.


"If you don't abide by the rules of god you will go to hell. if you do not abide by the rules of your country/society you will go to prison. same thing, isn't it?"

No its not the same thing, again the difference is evidence. We have good evidence prisons exist, anyone can go and visit one. The same in not true for hell.


"well you know a dog and a wolf are pretty similar, so who evolved out of who? "
Genetic evidence suggests dogs diverged form a wolf lineage about 15,000 years ago. As I'm new they wont let me post links up until I have 15 posts. But just look up "dog" on Wikipedia you will find references.
Evolution cannot be proved, gravity cannot be proved, nothing in science is ever proved. Only mathematics has proof. In stead science sets up tests to disprove prove its theories, if we keep trying to disprove something and fail then we accept it as a true, especially when the predictions of the theory are matched in future data sets. This exactly the case with evolution. No experiment has ever shown it to be wrong and the predictions of evolutionary theory are incredibly accurate. There are enormous amounts of fossils supporting evolution. Again I cant link yet. But type in hominid fossils in Google and you will see. Even if we had zero fossils the genetic evidence is overwhelming. That's why serious scientists don't debate evolution, its as much a fact as anything in science.




"

 

[Atheisttillprovenwrong]

See, thats another thing about religious people, is they usually get offended when trying to have a conversation.

I guess my big problem when it comes to the evolution thing is this:

Religious people claim: there had to be a first cell, so where did that cell come from?

I agree, i dont know, and science cant prove where that cell came from, but i also dont think that its fair to say, oh, i know where it came from, this omnipotent being just snapped his fingers and it was created like that.

Ill stick to the scientific process rather than fairy tales.

And another thing, is that to me, there is no middle ground. Your either religious or your not. There is no middle ground, it either is or isnt. I dont agree that a person can pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to agree with, because if your a true christain, then you believe that the bible is divinely inspired, therefore every single thing in the bible should be thought of as correct.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

See, thats another thing about religious people, is they usually get offended when trying to have a conversation..

Not in my experience... all people are much the same.

I guess my big problem when it comes to the evolution thing is this:

Religious people claim: there had to be a first cell, so where did that cell come from?

I agree, i dont know, and science cant prove where that cell came from, but i also dont think that its fair to say, oh, i know where it came from, this omnipotent being just snapped his fingers and it was created like that.

Ill stick to the scientific process rather than fairy tales.

You are the first I have known to worry about the chicken and egg situation regarding cells... it is certainly not something Christians worry much about.

And another thing, is that to me, there is no middle ground. Your either religious or your not. There is no middle ground, it either is or isnt.

If that is what you believe that is fine with me... But what is the point you are making?

I dont agree that a person can pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to agree with, because if your a true Christan, then you believe that the bible is divinely inspired, therefore every single thing in the bible should be thought of as correct.

First, there is no such thing as a "True Christian" It has been debated so often, that we can be pretty sure that there is no set of "rules" that every Christian can accept, that adds up to a "true Christian"

Some Christians believe that the Bible is Divinely inspired, Some believe that some of the writers were divinely inspired. There is not even any agreement on which books should be in the Bible... This changes according to denomination.

As Christians do not agree on your rule that " therefore every single thing in the bible should be thought of as correct." I don't think any will accept your say so on this.

You seem to have very little Idea What the Various Christian Faiths do in fact believe.

 

[tumbleweed41]

See, thats another thing about religious people, is they usually get offended when trying to have a conversation.

I guess my big problem when it comes to the evolution thing is this:

Religious people claim: there had to be a first cell, so where did that cell come from?

I agree, i dont know, and science cant prove where that cell came from, but i also dont think that its fair to say, oh, i know where it came from, this omnipotent being just snapped his fingers and it was created like that.

Ill stick to the scientific process rather than fairy tales.

And another thing, is that to me, there is no middle ground. Your either religious or your not. There is no middle ground, it either is or isnt. I dont agree that a person can pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to agree with, because if your a true christain, then you believe that the bible is divinely inspired, therefore every single thing in the bible should be thought of as correct.

I agree to finding answers through scientific process.
But you still have quite a few problems in your statements.

• "Religious people claim..", "that's another thing about religious people..." generalization. Not a good start to a debate.
• "I agree, i dont know, and science cant prove where that cell came from, but i also dont think that its fair to say,..." Any guess is still a guess, and unless someone claims it as fact, it is a fair guess. As long as one keeps an open mind.
• "because if your a true christain,...", Here we go from discussing religion in general to what your interpretation of what a "true" Christian is. Do you have special insight into what "true" Christianity is? What denomination is "true"? What specific beliefs are "true"? And why do you equate all religious beliefs to your interpretation of "true" Christians?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Hi Eselam



"well you know a dog and a wolf are pretty similar, so who evolved out of who? "
Genetic evidence suggests dogs diverged form a wolf lineage about 15,000 years ago. As I'm new they wont let me post links up until I have 15 posts. But just look up "dog" on Wikipedia you will find references.

"

Dogs and wolves can still interbreed, so they are not distinct species. They are simply wild dogs with a distinctive look.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Welcome aboard Atheistillprovenwrong.

As you can see, regardless of your own limited beliefs regarding religions and religious people....people do indeed pick and choose.
More to the point, they tend to each create their own unique and specific set of beliefs that they are most comfortable living with. This ends with a broad bell-curve with over 6 billion statistical points under the curve. At one extreme are die-hard atheists; at the other extreme are literallists of various ancient religious tomes, who won't flush their used toilet paper unless their "good book" tells them to.
Please click on Quagmire's link (post #14 in this thread) --> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1755647-post14.html

Then there are those of us who step into the third dimension outside of that 2-dimensional bell-curve. We are agnostics.

While you are here, you will likely find that most people cannot/will not be swayed one iota from their original stance (as, given your user-name, you will also not be swayed ), but instead this place is interesting to learn about variations in human philosophy.

Enjoy your time here.
See you in the funny pages!

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Welcome to RF! That aside...

It seems to me that when you speak about religion you assume that all religious people are Christians. I am not sure how much you have poked around here, but you hopefully know that is wrong. Personally, I am Wiccan. I worship the Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt. I believe in creation, but not that of the Christians. I don't believe in their bible. I believe in what is written in the sacred texts of my religion. And yes, my religion (as far as the Ancient Egyptian part) predates Christianity by thousands of years. And now I will tell you why we can have it both ways. Or, has been said, have our cake and eat it too. Imagine that a God at some point created the world and the life within it. No religion will argue with the fact that we all have free will. If our minds can evolve in such ways, doesn't it stand to reason that our bodies can as well? My theory is that everything was created, but that many things have evolved over time into more complex beings. This cannot be disproven by science or any religious text.

 

[skydivephil]

Dogs and wolves can still interbreed, so they are not distinct species. They are simply wild dogs with a distinctive look.

where did i say they were distinct species and why is this relevant?

 

[Quagmire]

See, thats another thing about religious people, is they usually get offended when trying to have a conversation.

No I don't see. Which "religious people" are you talking about and where are they taking offense?

The nice thing about vague generalities is that you can apply them to anything you like, whether there's anything there to apply them to or not.

It's a guaranteed way of being able to walk away feeling like your point has been validated even after it's been blown apart.

It's also a really cowardly debate tactic.

And another thing, is that to me, there is no middle ground. Your either religious or your not. There is no middle ground,

Which is why you're not likely to learn much anytime soon; most truth lies between two absurd extremes.

it either is or isnt. I dont agree that a person can pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to agree with, because if your a true christain, then you believe that the bible is divinely inspired, therefore every single thing in the bible should be thought of as correct.

Like I said...

 

[skydivephil]

Which is why you're not likely to learn much anytime soon; most truth lies between two absurd extremes.




Like I said...

How do you get "most truth"? Certainly for many questions that's true. For example, obesity is likely to have both genetic and environmental causes. However whether the Earth if flat or not, whether we landed on the moon or not, whether the universe is expanding or not; all of these questions do not appear to have answers in the middle. The answers to these questions are digital, its one or the other. How you added up all the questions in the universe and concluded "most" don't have such a digital solution is beyond me.

 

[Quagmire]

How do you get "most truth"? Certainly for many questions that's true. For example, obesity is likely to have both genetic and environmental causes. However whether the Earth if flat or not, whether we landed on the moon or not, whether the universe is expanding or not; all of these questions do not appear to have answers in the middle. The answers to these questions are digital, its one or the other. How you added up all the questions in the universe and concluded "most" don't have such a digital solution is beyond me.

I wont try to explain it to you then.

 

[Riverwolf]

I dont agree that a person can pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to agree with, because if your a true christain, then you believe that the bible is divinely inspired, therefore every single thing in the bible should be thought of as correct.

Says who?

What about the Gnostic Christians? What about Catholics, who have more books in the OT? What about the Ethiopian Christians, who have the Book of Enoch and Jubilees in their OT?

If you look at all the Christian groups, you'd realize that there's no such thing as a "true" Christian; many groups claim themselves to be "true" Christians, and each has its own set of favored Biblical passages, and some even omit the OT altogether. (An early Christian leader, Marcion, the man who first published a Christian Bible, omitted the entire OT, and his Bible only had a mangled version of Luke's Gospel and ten of Paul's letters.)