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Cant we all just get along?

ryanam

Member
At the official level, most religions do get along now. As you pointed out, there are some areas that are much less receptive; however, that has a lot more to do with culture than religion.

Although I agree with the cultural aspect of these differences, I find it hard to see that religion plays less of a part when, every time I read a newspaper, I see yet more encroachment on modern civilization in the name of religion. People alone can be evil, no doubt. When religion is involved, these people see reason to their atrocities.

Taking Islam as an example, you may hear that it's embracing those who have different views as a newer, more hip Islam. Never forget though, that this religion (among others) will not tolerate ANY impurities and will be satisfied ONLY when Islam final. It sees any non-believers a sub-human.

Rivalry, war and conflict are innate in religion. As human beings we have the ability to form our own beliefs and opinions of everything we see and this has been the case since we evolved into the primate we are today. This is precisely why the continued existence of religion will not allow the human race coincide in peaceful existence.

Is there not one person who can give a suitable response to the below statement in favor of religion? (I've asked it of religious people enough times)

Name one good, morally just undertaking that a religious person can do but an Athiest CANNOT. Physically, cannot do.

Now, name one evil undertaking that a religious person can do that an Athiest would never dream of.

When you truthfully and logically think about these statements... there's not a single morally just and good undertaking that a religious person can do that I can't.

As for the evil that a religious person can undertake that I would never even think of doing? You guessed it. The mutilation of babies genitalia (circumcision) is one of the less obvious undertakings that I'd like to describe... it's OK though. It's done in the name of religion.

But the first statement? If anyone has any ideas on that, I'd like, genuinely, to know.
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
In the case of Christendom, Pope John Paul II actually wanted the unity between all the Christian Churches so that "the body of Christ will finally become 'undivided' ", as well as to establish its connections with non Christian Churches/beliefs, extending the church's door even to those that are "non believers". Personally it can happen. A lot of people with different religious views do get along, but I guess in terms of principle, it may be difficult or nearly impossible.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
But the first statement? If anyone has any ideas on that, I'd like, genuinely, to know.

How about this? Speaking as a religious person, morality is subjective and only exists as far as humans are concerned. Humans have always been developing their moral systems more or less on their own, attributing them to God, and only recently have they come up with something that can even remotely be called "universal." Even still, it only applies to humans, and not the universe as a whole, thus, it's still only subjective.

As an aside, I have heard of plenty of non-religious people performing circumcision on their babies before.
 

ryanam

Member
It's a very simple statement which requires a very simple, concise reply consisting of a good, decent undertaking which can be done by a religious person and not by an Atheist.

Anyone who mutilates the genitalia of their young, religious or not, should be prosecuted in the same way if a fully grown man was forced to go through the same.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
It's a very simple statement which requires a very simple, concise reply consisting of a good, decent undertaking which can be done by a religious person and not by an Atheist.

Pilgrimage, perhaps? Oh, wait, atheistic Buddhists and Jains still do that. ^_^

Tithe? Oh, wait. Atheists are fully capable of financially helping out a local church/temple and its staff even if they don't believe in that religion.

Oh, wait, I've got one. Renounce the world and its dualities altogether in the final journey for God. ... Oh, wait. Buddhists and Jains do that, too. (Albeit using different terminology.)

IOW, nope, not really. :D

So, now, I must ask... so what?

Anyone who mutilates the genitalia of their young, religious or not, should be prosecuted in the same way if a fully grown man was forced to go through the same.

Doesn't change the fact that atheists are just as fully capable of circumcision as theists.
 

Many Sages One Truth

Active Member
All religions tell the same story essentially, however I never see any of them getting together to help people. Couldn't they do more common good working together?

I agree with you, and for the record, many religious folks are starting to see this. The Dalai Lama is probably my favorite leader in the interfaith movement today. He's written several works on Jesus as embodying the Bodhisattva ideal. The Dalai Lama said he thought it was so beautiful how Jesus was such a giving person.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Didn´t the pope made a preaching reunion of more than one religion? there was the dalai lama, some muslims and others.

More of that should be done :)
 

ryanam

Member
Pilgrimage, perhaps? Oh, wait, atheistic Buddhists and Jains still do that. ^_^

Tithe? Oh, wait. Atheists are fully capable of financially helping out a local church/temple and its staff even if they don't believe in that religion.

Oh, wait, I've got one. Renounce the world and its dualities altogether in the final journey for God. ... Oh, wait. Buddhists and Jains do that, too. (Albeit using different terminology.)

IOW, nope, not really. :D

So, now, I must ask... so what?



Doesn't change the fact that atheists are just as fully capable of circumcision as theists.


Again, inadequate. There's nothing you've mentioned that I PHYSICALLY couldn't do myself. If I woke up one day and fancied a pilgrimage, who is to stop me?

Tilthe as I understand it is:

A one-tenth part of something, paid as a (usually) voluntary contribution or as a levy or tax-like payment (technically not a tax as it is not paid to a level of government), usually to support a religious organization.

This is nothing to do with the anything I said. As an Atheist, I could, if I wanted to help fund the already astonishing wealth of the church. I would not want to though.

"Renounce the world and its dualities altogether" - Ridiculous and nonsensical. Since when does a religious person have the power to renounce the world of it's dualities? Especially over someone who doesn't believe in god? Religion has played an extraordinary part in the deaths of countless numbers of people over the centuries and you have the conceit to say that YOU'RE the ones who can solve the problem over anyone else?
 

ryanam

Member
And on circumcision... no Atheist would think this up, independently, without the influence of it's true purpose. To stop Jews from going to hell.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Again, inadequate. There's nothing you've mentioned that I PHYSICALLY couldn't do myself. If I woke up one day and fancied a pilgrimage, who is to stop me?

Tilthe as I understand it is:

A one-tenth part of something, paid as a (usually) voluntary contribution or as a levy or tax-like payment (technically not a tax as it is not paid to a level of government), usually to support a religious organization.

This is nothing to do with the anything I said. As an Atheist, I could, if I wanted to help fund the already astonishing wealth of the church. I would not want to though.

Did you actually READ my post? I said that atheists are fully capable of these things.

"Renounce the world and its dualities altogether" - Ridiculous and nonsensical. Since when does a religious person have the power to renounce the world of it's dualities?

Uh, read the post more closely. Renounce the world AND its dualities. This means to make the attempt, usually either in the forest or a monastery, to get away from this worlds dualities of joy and suffering, pain and pleasure, good and bad, etc.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
And on circumcision... no Atheist would think this up, independently, without the influence of it's true purpose. To stop Jews from going to hell.

Jews don't believe in Hell.

If I remember correctly, there was a time not too long ago when it was thought circumcision had health benefits. Of course we now know this to be untrue.
 

ryanam

Member
In which case, I ask again again. Is there anything an Athiest CANNOT do, which a theist CAN do which has a positive affect on humanity?

Just one thing. That's all I ask.

Pilgrimage doesn't have a positive affect on humanity. Tilthe, doesn't have a positive affect on humanity.
 

ryanam

Member
Jews don't believe in Hell.

If I remember correctly, there was a time not too long ago when it was thought circumcision had health benefits. Of course we now know this to be untrue.

I knew, as soon as I'd posted that that you'd correct it. Ok... for your benefit we'll say "otherwise they don't fulfill the requirements of their god and therefore wont go to heaven".
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
In which case, I ask again again. Is there anything an Athiest CANNOT do, which a theist CAN do which has a positive affect on humanity?

Just one thing. That's all I ask.

I already answered the question. Read my initial response to you more closely.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I knew, as soon as I'd posted that that you'd correct it. Ok... for your benefit we'll say "otherwise they don't fulfill the requirements of their god and therefore wont go to heaven".

Much better.

Still, doesn't change the fact that there was a time when it was thought there were legit health benefits. Those people get a free pass from ignorance as far as I'm concerned.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yet neither war had anything to do with religion.

But if these had to do with religion, why are they limited to Ireland?

Between Muslims and Hindus? As far as I know, they aren't slaughtering each other. Sure, the terrorist groups among each religion is slaughtering each other and themselves, but that's hardly a religious factor.

Again, which had nothing to do with religion.

And yet they do that on a more regular basis. It's just not reported that much, because it's not good news.

The beliefs that moved both sides in World War II to slaughter one another certainly included religious beliefs. But you are missing the point. The religions of these people did not prevent them from slaughtering people of the same religion. The warfare in Ireland is sectarian, and it is misleading to claim otherwise. During the partition of India, hundreds of thousands of Hindus and Muslims were slaughtered because of their religion, by people who are muslims and hindus. The genocide in Rwanda was perpetrated by Catholics, with priests and nuns supporting and sharing in the slaughter. Religions cannot escape the bloodguilt they have incurred by claiming wars, terrorist acts, and genocides 'had nothing to do with religion'. Religion has supported and shared in these heinous crimes, and continues to do so.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The beliefs that moved both sides in World War II to slaughter one another certainly included religious beliefs. But you are missing the point. The religions of these people did not prevent them from slaughtering people of the same religion. The warfare in Ireland is sectarian, and it is misleading to claim otherwise.

I didn't say they weren't sectarian.

During the partition of India, hundreds of thousands of Hindus and Muslims were slaughtered because of their religion, by people who are muslims and hindus.
Well, taking a quick look at this one event 60 years ago, I'm not surprised that there was violence; great changes were being made, and people don't like it when the status quo changes. But as far as I can tell, they've been living in nonviolent tension ever since, occasional groups nonwithstanding.

The genocide in Rwanda was perpetrated by Catholics, with priests and nuns supporting and sharing in the slaughter.
Horrible, yes, but not the cause.

Religions cannot escape the bloodguilt they have incurred by claiming wars, terrorist acts, and genocides 'had nothing to do with religion'. Religion has supported and shared in these heinous crimes, and continues to do so.
At best, they were the flimsy justifications, but not the core motivation. If religion didn't exist, they would find some other flimsy justification.

After all, if religion were the cause, then we'd expect wholly secular societies to be more peaceful, right? But the USSR was hardly a utopia. North Korea isn't a paradise. If religion isn't the cause of the problems in these two countries, then what was it?

Aum namah sivaya:namaste
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Pilgrimage, perhaps? Oh, wait, atheistic Buddhists and Jains still do that. ^_^

Tithe? Oh, wait. Atheists are fully capable of financially helping out a local church/temple and its staff even if they don't believe in that religion.

Oh, wait, I've got one. Renounce the world and its dualities altogether in the final journey for God. ... Oh, wait. Buddhists and Jains do that, too. (Albeit using different terminology.)

IOW, nope, not really. :D

So, now, I must ask... so what?



Doesn't change the fact that atheists are just as fully capable of circumcision as theists.
i must interject, if you don't mind ;)


well lets exclude those religions that do not impose their beliefs on others inalienable rights...or do not adhere to the cast system...

it makes all the difference in the world for those who appoint themselves as the morally superior or proclaim to have inherited earthly privileges based on a past life.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
i must interject, if you don't mind ;)


well lets exclude those religions that do not impose their beliefs on others inalienable rights...or do not adhere to the cast system...

it makes all the difference in the world for those who appoint themselves as the morally superior or proclaim to have inherited earthly privileges based on a past life.

Oh, absolutely. The way I see it, we shouldn't worry about what our past lives may have been; what's important now is this life. I have no idea who or what I may have been in a past life, and I don't believe I have the capability to know, so it doesn't matter.
 
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