Capitalism is EVIL.

[Pete in Panama]

Not sure how you have the concept of evil arising from an atheistic view, mythical or otherwise, but ok.

So you've never run into a bigoted aitheist who's filled w/ truth out to vanquish perditious wrong doing where ever it lay...

If many say that evil does not exist in the real world, how many constitutes many, in your view? Perhaps given in terms of a percentage of population might give us a clear picture of how many many is for you.

Well I could make a wild *** guess but my take here is you're playing word games and don't really care.

 

[Revoltingest]

So you've never run into a bigoted aitheist who's filled w/ truth out to vanquish perditious wrong doing where ever it lay...

Atheists are diverse.
We've no scripture imposing morality upon us.
So we can range from slavering misanthropes
to saintly examplars.

 

[MikeF]

So you've never run into a bigoted aitheist who's filled w/ truth out to vanquish perditious wrong doing where ever it lay...

For there to be an atheist there must first be theists and their religion. The concept of evil enters the culture from religious myth, though once present, it can be used out of it's original context, as often happens with lots of the words we use.

Well I could make a wild *** guess but my take here is you're playing word games and don't really care.

My intent was to give a little pushback on your use of many. It is very easy to claim many people say or do this or that. Is it many because 70% of the population hold the view, or is it many with only 5% of the population because 5% of hundreds of millions or billions of people is still a lot of actual people? And then there is the possibility that you are wrong and it is not many at all.

Since the concept of evil seems to be part of the belief system in the major Abrahamic religions and say roughly 70% of Americans at least are affiliated with those religions, saying "many" people do not think evil exist seems counter-intuitive if true.

 

[Rival]

The concept of evil enters the culture from religious myth

Is this true though?

 

[MikeF]

Is this true though?

Perhaps not. If the word/label originated in another language and simply evolved within the English language to have heavy moral and religious connotations then we would technically have to say no. However, we can also look at the concept that is being expressed, regardless of the label attached, in whatever language the concept is being expressed with it's language specific label, and make some judgement as to how the concept came to be or was developed.

Perhaps you disagree on either or both counts, and/or take issue with my broad implication that religions in general are based in myth. You weren't specific as to where your doubt lay.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Please help me undertand what you mean by the word "capitalism".

Are you talking about people buying & selling things in the open market? That exists but it seems so basic to our humanity that it would be hard to disagree. Are you talking about those evil money mongers who scarf up every penny lying around so they can run back to their 7-story money bin and scream "I'M RICH I'M RICH!!!". That only happens in comic books.

It is like everything, moderation is the key.

Moderation in Capitalism bolted out the door quite some time ago.

"Capitalism is often thought of as an economic system in which private actors own and control property in accord with their interests, and demand and supply freely set prices in markets in a way that can serve the best interests of society. The essential feature of capitalism is the motive to make a profit."

The motive to make a profit is now the dominant feature.

I cringe at all the motivational videos of those that have made it big showing everyone else how easy it is for them to do it as well. It is a ludicrous position. Like the person who owns a portfolio of 6 homes saying you can all do it, do the sums people.

It's like my job and KPI's each year you have to find improvement in efficiency or productivity, do the sums, in the end you can improve no more and work no harder.

Capitalism has turned to a materialistic self satisfying pursuits, the balance lost where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Of course, this is not every case.

Regards Tony

 

[Revoltingest]

It is like everything, moderation is the key.

Moderation in Capitalism bolted out the door quite some time ago.

"Capitalism is often thought of as an economic system in which private actors own and control property in accord with their interests, and demand and supply freely set prices in markets in a way that can serve the best interests of society. The essential feature of capitalism is the motive to make a profit."

The motive to make a profit is now the dominant feature.

I cringe at all the motivational videos of those that have made it big showing everyone else how easy it is for them to do it as well. It is a ludicrous position. Like the person who owns a portfolio of 6 homes saying you can all do it, do the sums people.

It's like my job and KPI's each year you have to find improvement in efficiency or productivity, do the sums, in the end you can improve no more and work no harder.

Capitalism has turned to a materialistic self satisfying pursuits, the balance lost where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Of course, this is not every case.

Regards Tony

You think capitalism has changed?
It's only gotten more regulated.

 

[Pete in Panama]

For there to be an atheist there must first be theists and their religion. The concept of evil enters the culture from religious myth,...

--and I'd point out that many atheists who are indignantly at war w/ those they consider to be in error. You see it otherwise and appear to be unwilling to see my point. We might just want to call it a day on this topic.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Atheists are diverse.

True.

We've no scripture imposing morality upon us...

While that may be your experience, it's my experience that from the broad spectrum of the many kinds of atheists, that there are some who insist on quoting their honored texts of say Marx or Azimov w/ a reverence and enthusiasm on a par w/ any bigoted orthodox theist. Now we can respect our diverse backgrounds of varied experience and look for common ground, or you can advance into a quarrelsome sinkhole by yourself.

Your call.

 

[MikeF]

--and I'd point out that many atheists who are indignantly at war w/ those they consider to be in error.

Whether that is true or not seems a separate issue from the question of where the concept of evil arose.

You see it otherwise and appear to be unwilling to see my point. We might just want to call it a day on this topic.

If you simply wish to state "many atheists who are indignantly at war w/ those they consider to be in error", then we are indeed talking past each other. Happy to end things here. Cheers.

 

[Revoltingest]

True.

While that may be your experience, it's my experience that from the broad spectrum of the many kinds of atheists, that there are some who insist on quoting their honored texts of say Marx or Azimov w/ a reverence and enthusiasm on a par w/ any bigoted orthodox theist. Now we can respect our diverse backgrounds of varied experience and look for common ground, or you can advance into a quarrelsome sinkhole by yourself.

An atheist who chooses some "honored text"
is free to do so because atheism places no
limitations on thought or behavior whatsoever.
This is not merely my experience.
This is the reality of atheism.

 

[Pete in Panama]

It is like everything, moderation is the key.

Moderation in Capitalism bolted out the door quite some time ago.

"Capitalism is often thought of as an economic system in which private actors own and control property in accord with their interests, and demand and supply freely set prices in markets in a way that can serve the best interests of society. The essential feature of capitalism is the motive to make a profit."

The motive to make a profit is now the dominant feature....

We hear that a lot, especially from folks that consider profit to be a bad thing, and this may be one of many insulting definitions of the pejorative "capitalism". That's why I prefer simply talking about free open markets for buying/selling and exchanging.

Please understand that one of my daughters is an employee of a non-profit organization. They're a private organization and the firm (based in Washington DC) has prestigious headquarters and a large employee payroll. They have to watch the company income and keep expenditures from sinking the operation, but they're successful and expanding. The company does not make a profit for the tax people to go after.

Also, please be aware that for more than a quarter of a century I was employed by the U.S. government while I still lived in an environment of free and open markets for buying and selling. The government does not make a profit. We don't want the best judiciary money can buy and we don't want our military serving the highest bidder. We're still in a free and open market.

 

[Pete in Panama]

If you simply wish to state "many atheists who are indignantly at war w/ those they consider to be in error", then we are indeed talking past each other...

Please understand that most atheists I've met are wonderful people and I find I have much to learn from them. One thing I've come to accept is the benefit of accepting reality on its own terms and I've taken that to apply to how I see things. Perhaps even using the word "God" in itself is problematic.

We were talking about the origins of the idea of evil and perhaps a better question is whether the entire idea of "evil" is useful in our discussion. If you feel that admitting to the existence of evil is stupid then I can respect that and as a consequence we can both agree that the idea "Capitalism is Evil" is also stupid.

 

[Pete in Panama]

An atheist who chooses some "honored text"
is free to do so because atheism places no
limitations on thought or behavior whatsoever.
This is not merely my experience.
This is the reality of atheism.

"Atheism" can be defined any way you want. However, the array of people who call themselves atheists is diverse --coming in all kinds of shapes, sizes, colors, and flavors. Maybe I need to add here that it's my experience that most self-defined atheists that I've met are very nice people and I apologize if I've given the impression that I've chosen sides here.

 

[Revoltingest]

"Atheism" can be defined any way you want.

No, it's the lack of belief in gods.
This can range from...
Weak atheism: Don't know, & don't believe.
To strong atheism: There are no gods.

 

[MikeF]

Please understand that most atheists I've met are wonderful people and I find I have much to learn from them. One thing I've come to accept is the benefit of accepting reality on its own terms and I've taken that to apply to how I see things. Perhaps even using the word "God" in itself is problematic.

I would say accepting reality on its own terms is a great approach.

I would agree that using the label "God" has become problematic given the diversity of meanings attached to the label.

We were talking about the origins of the idea of evil and perhaps a better question is whether the entire idea of "evil" is useful in our discussion. If you feel that admitting to the existence of evil is stupid then I can respect that and as a consequence we can both agree that the idea "Capitalism is Evil" is also stupid.

How would we translate the sentiment "Capitalism is Evil" into other terms that still captures the sentiment trying to be expressed? Might the sentiment be "Capitalism, in any shape or form, is harmful to humanity."? Or if we want to emphasize morality in the equation, might we say "Capitalism is irreconcilable with my (person who is making this claim) moral and ethical system."? Or maybe it is enough to say, "Capitalism is really, really, bad."

Regardless, I personally do not share such sentiments, however they may be expressed.

 

[icehorse]

There isn't a whole lot the religious and myself can agree upon. But when it comes to capitalism being evil, we are in total agreement. To that end, I have a clip from the documentary, "Capitalism: A love story" to show you. (The whole thing can be seen for free on youtube) It shows what some religious people have to say about capitalism. Heed what they say.


Capitalism, A love story, clip - 100FREE Best Video Sharing

All economic systems are man-made machines. All man-made machines require monitoring, tweaking and adjusting. You don't just turn on a machine and expect it to run perfectly forever.

I'd say that the problem is that we've allowed capitalism to run without the proper monitoring and tweaking, and that's devolved us into an incredibly dangerous oligarchy / kleptocracy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We hear that a lot, especially from folks that consider profit to be a bad thing, and this may be one of many insulting definitions of the pejorative "capitalism". That's why I prefer simply talking about free open markets for buying/selling and exchanging.

Please understand that one of my daughters is an employee of a non-profit organization. They're a private organization and the firm (based in Washington DC) has prestigious headquarters and a large employee payroll. They have to watch the company income and keep expenditures from sinking the operation, but they're successful and expanding. The company does not make a profit for the tax people to go after.

Also, please be aware that for more than a quarter of a century I was employed by the U.S. government while I still lived in an environment of free and open markets for buying and selling. The government does not make a profit. We don't want the best judiciary money can buy and we don't want our military serving the highest bidder. We're still in a free and open market.

The Baha'i Writings offer much on this topic, we know there is good in all things.

We also know a new system is required where capitalism is moderated.

I have worked most of my life for Local Governments, which are also not for profit, but for service to the community it represents.

Regards Tony

 

[Pete in Panama]

No, it's the lack of belief in gods.
This can range from...
Weak atheism: Don't know, & don't believe.
To strong atheism: There are no gods.

somehow I'm getting the idea that your first priority is to find disagreements with me and to confront me. That may or may not be accurate but my understanding of my desire is to find common ground and advance in a search for truth. We're missing at that goal and my suggestion now is for us to set this aside and we can either take up other topics or return to this after we've had time to think.

 

[Revoltingest]

somehow I'm getting the idea that your first priority is to find disagreements with me and to confront me.

No.

That may or may not be accurate but my understanding of my desire is to find common ground and advance in a search for truth. We're missing at that goal and my suggestion now is for us to set this aside and we can either take up other topics or return to this after we've had time to think.

I've nothing to add.