Cases! Real Ones!

[Rival]

I put this in The Arts because I do think language learning and grammar is an art.

First, I'm sorry for myself (Oh Rival, really?) that I wasn't taught grammar at school and I've had to teach myself what the accusative, dative cases. etc. are, when it would have taken an hour at best in a classroom. Oh well.

Second, I love grammatical case and I'm also sorry that English has crap all cases. I love foreign languages that have at least some cases. I love Romanian and other Latin based ones, because I love going back to the Vulgar Latin to see how they separated to become so different and mutually unintelligible. I also love to compare the Vulgar to the Classic Latin, too.

In short, I prefer:

Porta casae (Late Classic) This preserves the case ('of [the] house' is one word in genitive case)

to

Illa porta de illa casa (Vulgar) (Prepositions and definite articles are needed, so literally the door of the house)

Makes me sad that English doesn't really have cases

I think I'm the only one though

 

[Rival]

More lovely examples from Wiki

Again, I'm much more of a Classic Latin fan. Less clunky and more succinct.

Classical Latin:

Marcus patrī librum dat. "Marcus is giving [his] father [a/the] book."

Vulgar Latin:

Marcus da libru a patre. "Marcus is giving [a/the] book to [his] father."

Just as in the disappearing dative case, colloquial Latin sometimes replaced the disappearing genitive case with the preposition de followed by the ablative.

Classical Latin:

Marcus mihi librum patris dat. "Marcus is giving me [his] father's book.

Vulgar Latin:

Marcus mi da libru de patre. "Marcus is giving me [the] book of [his] father."

 

[Laika]

 

[Rival]

This is punctuation lol, not grammar

 

[Valjean]

Georgian has seven cases, Russian six, Ancient Greek five. Maybe one of these would interest you.

 

[Rival]

Georgian has seven cases, Russian six, Ancient Greek five. Maybe one of these would interest you.

I've looked at Greek, both ancient and modern; while both Russian and Georgian hold sway over me too, but I have not studied them (yet!)

 

[Rival]

@LuisDantas

Tell us all about Brasilian Portuguese cases please? Please? If it has any.

 

[Laika]

This is punctuation lol, not grammar

That must be why I only got a B in english.

 

[Revoltingest]

I put this in The Arts because I do think language learning and grammar is an art.

First, I'm sorry for myself (Oh Rival, really?) that I wasn't taught grammar at school and I've had to teach myself what the accusative, dative cases. etc. are, when it would have taken an hour at best in a classroom. Oh well.

Second, I love grammatical case and I'm also sorry that English has crap all cases. I love foreign languages that have at least some cases. I love Romanian and other Latin based ones, because I love going back to the Vulgar Latin to see how they separated to become so different and mutually unintelligible. I also love to compare the Vulgar to the Classic Latin, too.

In short, I prefer:

Porta casae (Late Classic) This preserves the case ('of [the] house' is one word in genitive case)

to

Illa porta de illa casa (Vulgar) (Prepositions and definite articles are needed, so literally the door of the house)

Makes me sad that English doesn't really have cases

I think I'm the only one though

Me noticed you care about language.
Enjoyment it makes myself.
Grammar had me once to a someful extent.
But is much forgottening now.

 

[Rival]

@Luca85

Come on, I know you're dying to post

 

[LuisDantas]

@LuisDantas

Tell us all about Brasilian Portuguese cases please? Please? If it has any.

I'm not very fluent in Portuguese beyond everyday speech (albeit with an exotic vocabulary), but I found this:

Com o tempo, a função gramatical dos casos na língua portuguesa evoluiu de declinação (sintético) para serem expressos por preposições (analítico). No entanto, os casos sobrevivem nos pronomes e a maioria dos gramáticos costuma classificar em reto (nominativo) : eu, tu, etc. e obliquo (me, mim, te, ti, comigo, contigo, etc). Mas caso obliquo é um nome genérico para todos os casos que sejam diferentes do caso reto/nominativo. Atualmente alguns gramáticos classificam os casos obliquos do português em:

acusativo: me, te, etc
dativo: mim, ti, etc.
comitativo: contigo, comigo, etc.

Source: https://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120903055143AApmLrN

In essence, it says that for the most part Portuguese no longer relies on declinations for cases, and now uses prepositions for that purpose.

However, pronoums are still affected by cases, and most gramaticians categorize them as straight (or nominative) and oblique (any deviations from the straight form).

Some gramaticians further classify oblique pronoums as accusative, dative, and commitment-oriented (comitative).

acusativo: me, te, etc
dativo: mim, ti, etc.
comitativo: contigo, comigo, etc.

 

[Estro Felino]

@Luca85

Come on, I know you're dying to post

Lol...well...I think it's fascinating how Romance languages evolved from Latin. But honestly I think that languages with declensions are really difficult, and I think it's a relief that nouns in Romance languages don't have cases any more.
I definitely like Romance languages more than Latin, also because I find them easier to learn.
Besides, Classical Latin was quite different than the Medieval one. In fact, the door of the house was more like ianua domus.
It's interesting how in Romance languages this expression definitely comes from porta casae:
Fr: La porte de la maison
Sp. La puerta de la casa
Pt. A porta da casa
It. La porta della casa

 

[Rival]

Lol...well...I think it's fascinating how Roman languages evolved from Latin. But honestly I think that languages with declensions are really difficult, and I think it's a relief that nouns in Romance languages don't have cases any more.
I definitely like Romance languages more than Latin, also because I find them easier to learn.
Besides, Classical Latin was quite different than the Medieval one. In fact, the door house was more like ianua domus.
It's interesting how in Romance languages this expression definitely comes from porta casae:
Fr: La porte de la maison
Sp. La puerta de la casa
Pt. A porta da casa
It. La porta della casa

This is what I'm saying, I prefer it just as the late Latin classic, 'porta casae' I will give you that they are easier to learn than Latin, and French is pretty simple for an English person.

I dislike those pesky prepositions haha

 

[Estro Felino]

I dislike those pesky prepositions haha

I definitely love prepositions and o meu amigo brasileiro @LuisDantas will confirm that Portuguese is the Romance language with the highest number of prepositional contractions, a grammatical phenomenon where prepositions and other elements (articles, adjectives, pronouns) form a single word. Examples: neste, numa, do, no, dela, deles, etc etc....

 

[Valjean]

I've always been fascinated by the polysynthetic or the theoretical oligosynthetic languages; languages that consist almost entirely of bound morphemes; languages in which there are no "words;" where the smallest unit of meaning is an entire sentence.

 

[Rival]

So I prefer synthetic languages to analytic ones, would that be correct?

How about you guys?

 

[Valjean]

Both work, but the synthetic languages are more intricate, maybe more elegant.

 

[Rival]

Both work, but the synthetic languages are more intricate, maybe more elegant.

The fact that I prefer case systems, and have a dislike for prepositions, etc. makes me more suited to the synthetic languages I think.

Yes, I do find they seem more elegant and need fewer words.

 

[Helvetios]

I've always been fascinated by the polysynthetic or the theoretical oligosynthetic languages; languages that consist almost entirely of bound morphemes; languages in which there are no "words;" where the smallest unit of meaning is an entire sentence.

Any examples? What are your favourites?

@Rival, if you like the case system so much, try learning Finnish (15 cases) or Hungarian (18 cases). I happen to be a case fan as well, although Finnish continues to trip me up more than I think is necessary.

 

[Jainarayan]

Be careful what you wish for. Sanskrit has eight cases, three genders, three numbers, and six nominal stem endings. Because it is so highly inflected, it has an almost completely free word order, not to mention potential ambiguities.

Observe:

Govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajāmi (an ancient hymn that George Harrison set to music) that means "I worship Govinda (Krishna) the primeval Lord". It's all in the accusative (-am ending) because Govindam, adi--purusham (primeval Lord) tam (the/that) are the direct objects of the verb aham (I) bhajāmi (1st person present tense of worship). Sanskrit is also pro-drop, so the aham is really not needed.

It is also correct to say it "aham bhajāmi tam adi-purusham Govindam". Those just don't have the poetic or lyrical ring of the original.

The Mahāmantra (Hare Krishna mantra) is a play on words and somewhat ambiguous.

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma
Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

Hare is the vocative of Hari, a name of Vishnu. It is also the vocative of Harā, a name of Rādhā. So, is it invoking Vishnu as Krishna and Rāma, or invoking Krishna, Rādhā and Rāma, or doing both?

Btw, Haraḥ (short aand ḥ visarga) is a name of Shiva. These are just five forms and meanings for a noun stem:
Haraḥ = Shiva (nom. masc. sing.)
Hara = Haraḥ in the vocative
Harā = Rādhā (nom. fem. sing.)
Hare = Vishnu or Rādhā in the vocative.
Hariḥ = Vishnu (nom. masc. sing.)

Technically nominative masculine singular nouns in the -a stem end with ḥ, but it's usually dropped.

Here's the inflection for just Rāmaḥ:

Have fun!

Notice how some forms repeat: rāmābhyām in the dual of Instrumental, Dative, and Ablative.
rāmebhyaḥ in the plural of the Dative and Ablative. It can get confusing.