Cat Stevens at Glastonbury 2023? bad, bad idea.. :(

[Secret Chief]

My guess would be that if he performed at Glasto he wouldn't be overwhelmed by a rapturous reception.

"On 21 February 1989, Yusuf Islam addressed students at Kingston Polytechnic (now Kingston University) in London about his conversion to Islam and was asked about the controversy in the Muslim world and the fatwa calling for Salman Rushdie's execution. He replied, "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear – if someone defames the prophet, then he must die." "

- Cat Stevens' comments about Salman Rushdie - Wikipedia

(followed over time by weasel words)

 

[muhammad_isa]

If any performer—Jewish, Muslim, or otherwise—publicly stated their support for the death penalty for "blasphemy," yes, I would also be for their exclusion from the festival..

Well, clearly you do not believe in the Qur'an or Bible.
..so it's all right if somebody professes to believe in God .. but not if they speak what they consider to be the truth regards their religion?
Cat Stevens/Yusef Islam is not an Imam or political leader .. he is just a common Muslim, a singer

Why should you take it out on him, because he was taught by Arab Muslims that "the fatwa" was right?

Personally, I'm disgusted by the whole business .. both the behaviour and attitude of Muslims and non-Muslims.
There is ignorance on both sides, in my opinion.

Excluding him from the concert would be a form of racism, imo.
Islam-haters want him silenced .. who cares?
I do! Get rid of him, and more than likely he will be replaced with a less peaceful person. How sad.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Well, clearly you do not believe in the Qur'an or Bible.
..so it's all right if somebody professes to believe in God .. but not if they speak what they consider to be the truth regards their religion.
Cat Stevens/Yusef Islam is not an Imam or political leader .. he is just a common Muslim, a singer

It's also not socially acceptable to speak white-supremacist talking points in public. Some beliefs are tabooed, and rightfully so. They have directly contributed to loss of life.

Why should you take it out on him, because he was taught by Arab Muslims that "the fatwa" was right?

Personally, I'm disgusted by the whole business .. both the behaviour and attituder of Muslims an non-Muslims.
There is ignorance on both sides, in my opinion.

I would like to see where the ignorance is regarding the exclusion of Cat Stevens for beliefs that support religiously inspired murder (by the state, of course).

Excluding him from the concert would be a form of racism, imo.

By definition, it couldn't be, because it's not based on race. It's based on one of his publicly professed beliefs.

Islam-haters want him silenced .. who cares?
I do! Get rid of him, and more than likely he will be replaced with a less peaceful person. Sad.

People who are against the death penalty for blasphemy don't need to be "Islam-haters"; they just need to have a basic sense of respect for human life and personal freedom.

By the way, if Rushdie hadn't been attacked so recently, I would most likely have no problem with Cat Stevens' performing at the festival. I find the belief itself unconscionable, but I see no realistic way to consistently exclude everyone with similarly harmful beliefs (e.g., supporters of George W. Bush, Tony Blair, and Putin). That would also depend on how public or vocal they were in their expression of said beliefs, since public support for something like war or blasphemy laws tends to enable greater harm than personal or private support thereof.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is more about the discussion of capital punishment v. life imprisonment etc.
Re. apostate, that is the discussion about national security, similar to 'defecting to Russia' with govt. secrets etc.

Not similar at all.
Compromising national security can result in death & losing wars.
Apostasy results only in believers taking offense.

Most Muslim jurists do not agree with automatic punishment for apostacy per se.

That still sounds like an open door to executing infidels.
Most evil IMO.

 

[muhammad_isa]

By the way, if Rushdie hadn't been attacked so recently, I would most likely have no problem with Cat Stevens' performing at the festival. I find the belief itself unconscionable, but I see no realistic way to consistently exclude everyone with similarly harmful beliefs (e.g., supporters of George W. Bush, Tony Blair, and Putin). That would also depend on how public or vocal they were in their expression of said beliefs, since public support for something like war or blasphemy laws tends to enable greater harm than personal or private support thereof.

From Cat Stevens website..

In 2003 Yusuf received the ‘World Social Award’ in Germany from an International World Awards Jury for “dedicating his life to aiding the needy and the ill.” And in 2004 he was presented with the Man of Peace award by Mikhail Gorbachev on behalf of a committee of Nobel peace laureates for having worked to “alleviate the suffering of thousands of children and their parents and dedicating himself to promoting peace, reconciling people and the condemnation of terrorism.”

..but many people want to remember him for his mistake in the Salman Rushdie affair.
It deosn't matter what he says, those that hate Islam will continue to persecute him.

Perhaps you can enlighten us .. what does Islam teach about blasphemy .. is it a punishable offence in an Islamic nation according to the 'ulema?

..and by the way .. I don't have to follow anybody's fatwahs .. I live in UK.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not similar at all.
Compromising national security can result in death & losing wars.
Apostasy results only in believers taking offense.

Well that is where you are wrong.
In times of war, the allegiance of people is very important.
There is a thin line between freedom and promotion of civil collapse.
Naturally, you will stick to your way .. and I will stick to mine.

..and my way does not persecute people for changing their religion .. or sex .. or what have you.
..but publicly inciting hatred through religion, or endangering the security of the nation needs to be dealt with, imo.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well that is where you are wrong.
In times of war, the allegiance of people is very important.
There is a thin line between freedom and promotion of civil collapse.

I think you mis-read my post.
I agree with the 2nd & 3rd sentences.

..and my way does not persecute people for changing their religion .. or sex .. or what have you.

This is good.

..but publicly inciting hatred through religion, or endangering the security of the nation needs to be dealt with, imo.

This differs from apostasy & infidelity.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I could not tell a lie and confirmed that – like both the Torah and the Gospel – the Qur'an considers it, without repentance, as a capital offense.

There's no misunderstanding that. It's saying death for speech. That is extremist and by any decent standard of morality indefensible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There's no misunderstanding that. It's saying death for speech. That is extremist and by any decent standard of morality indefensible.

There is no misunderstanding the verse in Leviticus, I would agree.
However, whether the Iranian "fatwah" was according to Islamic Sharia is a matter for the
"big boys".

Cat Stevens/Yusef Islam got out of his depth .. the media punished him.

I often take no notice of what Arabs or Asians teach me "what is Islam".
..but I do listen .. but I can think for myself too.

Things are not always what they seem. People want simple rules
i.e. kill apostates

context ! context !

Nations have different values .. the global nature of today's world is causing grief.
Russia / China .. the West .. and Islamic countries in between.
People are not satisified until you follow their philosophy, be it liberal Christian or Communist.

 

[icehorse]

Much of his earlier opinions came from the Arab community in central London Mosque.
It's like condemning a man for something he said decades ago..
..but I know, I know .. the devil won't leave him alone .. he's too famous to be ignored.
He must be "put down".

I say he is a man of peace..
..and God knows best.

At any time in those decades, he could have issued a clear apology. He has not.

And don't get started on the claim that "Islam is a religion of peace"

 

[muhammad_isa]

At any time in those decades, he could have issued a clear apology. He has not.

In your opinion..

 

[Jedster]

Your loss, it's a fine piece of fiction. IMO, not blasphemous or bad manners

I read it just before the fatwa(1988) and made no association with Islam and just saw it as satire about the author's own culture.

 

[Debater Slayer]

From Cat Stevens website..

In 2003 Yusuf received the ‘World Social Award’ in Germany from an International World Awards Jury for “dedicating his life to aiding the needy and the ill.” And in 2004 he was presented with the Man of Peace award by Mikhail Gorbachev on behalf of a committee of Nobel peace laureates for having worked to “alleviate the suffering of thousands of children and their parents and dedicating himself to promoting peace, reconciling people and the condemnation of terrorism.”

..but many people want to remember him for his mistake in the Salman Rushdie affair.
It deosn't matter what he says, those that hate Islam will continue to persecute him.

I would appreciate it if you focused on my points instead of bringing up "Islam haters" as if they were relevant to what I'm saying.

The excerpt you posted has to do with Stevens' charity work. It's irrelevant to his opinion on blasphemy laws or apostasy. Someone could simultaneously engage in charity work and be an extremist on specific issues.

Perhaps you can enlighten us .. what does Islam teach about blasphemy .. is it a punishable offence in an Islamic nation according to the 'ulema?

That depends on which school of thought and scholars one listens to. The majority of mainstream Sunni and Shi'a scholarly opinions do consider it a punishable offense, although there are many moderate Muslim voices that get drowned out by or faced with hostility from mainstream conservatives and traditionalists. Blasphemy and apostasy—from an Islam-centric framework—are also criminalized or practically prosecuted in multiple Muslim-majority countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Qatar, and Yemen, sometimes using laws against one to prosecute perceived instances of the other.

I also don't really care whether some clerics consider it acceptable to punish someone for such things. Their views shouldn't be imposed on everyone else, just like you, as a Muslim, shouldn't have to live in fear for your safety due to Christian or Hindu extremism.

..and by the way .. I don't have to follow anybody's fatwahs .. I live in UK.

Good for you. Many secularists and ex-Muslims live in Muslim-majority countries, though, so they have to worry about a multitude of violent beliefs concerning "blasphemy" and "apostasy." Salman Rushdie was also attacked by a fanatic in New York, not in a Muslim country.

And even if you lived in a Muslim-majority country, I don't think it would be ethical to support such beliefs. I don't see how living in the UK has any bearing on this.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would appreciate it if you focused on my points instead of bringing up "Islam haters" as if they were relevant to what I'm saying.

Thankyou for your reply..
I wasn't suggesting that you were an "Islam hater"..
I don't tend to converse much with such people..

The excerpt you posted has to do with Stevens' charity work. It's irrelevant to his opinion on blasphemy laws or apostasy. Someone could simultaneously engage in charity work and be an extremist on specific issues.

You mean .. he is just "pretending" to be a nice person.

That depends on which school of thought and scholars one listens to. The majority of mainstream Sunni and Shi'a scholarly opinions do consider it a punishable offense, although there are many moderate Muslim voices that get drowned out by or faced with hostility from mainstream conservatives and traditionalists.

Very true .. but as I say, it is not such a clear issue as many people would have it be.
The state have the choice of prosecuting people for the good of the state, and not out of revenge or disrespect.
Much like the famous "cut off the hand of a thief", there is something drastically wrong if these laws need to be constantly evoked.

Nations differ on the question of where to draw the line on "free speech" .. there has to be a line.
There is a line on this forum [i.e. forum rules]

Blasphemy and apostasy—from an Islam-centric framework—are also criminalized or practically prosecuted in multiple Muslim-majority countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Qatar, and Yemen, sometimes using laws against one to prosecute perceived instances of the other.

Corruption exists worldwide, but I have to agree with you that Muslim majority nations have more than their fair share.
I believe this is to do with the love of wealth. The prophet warned us that this would cause our downfall.
People should not be condemned without fair trial, as they often are .. the geo of Kings and leaders is often to blame.
..and thta is why I am in favour of democracy, although I am usually criticised for this by my fellow Muslims.
It looks hypocritical to me .. Muslims choose to come to the west, but they criticise democracy? Hmm

I also don't really care whether some clerics consider it acceptable to punish someone for such things. Their views shouldn't be imposed on everyone else, just like you, as a Muslim, shouldn't have to live in fear for your safety due to Christian or Hindu extremism.

Six of one, an half a dozen of the other. If one wants to be a "suffragette" or publicly criticise the majority,
there is a limit to tolerance in that case.
Cat Stevens has never said that ANYBODY should be killed by terrorists etc.
President Bush accused Osama bin Laden of masterminding the 9/11 disaster.
"Wanted dead or alive" .. they went to war over it.

Iran hasn't sent agents to kill Rushdie, as far as I can tell. Like John Lennon, he was attacked by some nutter.
A Muslim nutter? Maybe.

And even if you lived in a Muslim-majority country, I don't think it would be ethical to support such beliefs. I don't see how living in the UK has any bearing on this.

It has a bearing on my opinions, as I was born here and raised as a Christian .. much like Yusef Islam.
That is why I speak about him

 

[danieldemol]

Much like the famous "cut off the hand of a thief", there is something drastically wrong if these laws need to be constantly evoked.

There is something drastically wrong (ie the laws themselves) in my opinion.