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cause-and-effect: "cause" require evidence too

gnostic

The Lost One
The adherents to the BB beginning of the universe are eventually obliged to explain either, what existed before, or how the nothing to something creation process works?

Except that the BB cosmologists have said there was "nothing" before the Big Bang, first because there are no BEFORE the BB, as the scope of the model is LIMITED to the Observable Universe.

Other cosmologists have tried to offer alternative scenarios, including the BEFORE the BB (eg eternal universe, cyclical model, multiverse models, string cosmology, etc), but these are largely theoretical, as in, they are all mathematical, not testable or observable evidence.

Most sciences are only focused on the WHAT & HOW questions, where as Creationism (OEC, YEC, ID, etc) focused on the WHO. There are no WHO in the Big Bang cosmology, because entities like the Designer, God, Zeus, Enki, Ra, Brahma, Vishnu, etc, are all untestable.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The adherents to the BB beginning of the universe are eventually obliged to explain either, what existed before, or how the nothing to something creation process works?
Do you think the Big Bang is about something coming from nothing?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
That's okay, if you are believer or mystic, but if you going to include spirit or God as the cause of natural Universe, then you need more than just your personal belief in God, more than just faith in whatever it is that you believe in.

It is why scientists don't pursue the "spiritual" angle, because they have no way to test it.
So if religion says that the spiritual energy is omnipresent, and science says dark energy is omnipresent, is this not common ground. Religion accepts the 5% material universe that science studies, so there is common ground there too.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Why could not a god "just exist"?

Because spacetime - or space and time - do exist.

What you look at, in one of those larger telescopes, the objects we see, especially distant galaxies, do take time to reach us.

For instance, what we currently WITHOUT any telescope, like the Andromeda Galaxy is about 2 million light-year away. So what you see now, is actually happening 2 million years ago.

The more distant the objects the further back in time you are looking at.

Spacetime is real.

God not so much. You may believe in God, you may follow the Bible, but that's in some stories. God is not something or someone you see, touch, measure or test.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Because spacetime - or space and time - do exist.

What you look at, in one of those larger telescopes, the objects we see, especially distant galaxies, do take time to reach us.

For instance, what we currently WITHOUT any telescope, like the Andromeda Galaxy is about 2 million light-year away. So what you see now, is actually happening 2 million years ago.

The more distant the objects the further back in time you are looking at.

Spacetime is real.

God not so much. You may believe in God, you may follow the Bible, but that's in some stories. God is not something or someone you see, touch, measure or test.

If a god is supernatural, above nature, always existing,,, space nor time nor space-time is of no meaning.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Changed my mind about posting. Is there anyway to cancel a reply if you don't want to proceed?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
So if religion says that the spiritual energy is omnipresent, and science says dark energy is omnipresent, is this not common ground.
Common ground? Just accept the science. Dark energy is dark energy. Some theists have a bad habit of trying to abduct certain real phenomenon and re-label it with religious jargon. What this illustrates to us is that religious folks don't have evidence for their specific claims.

Religion accepts the 5% material universe that science studies, so there is common ground there too.
Religion is not relevant to understanding what is true about the universe.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Common ground? Just accept the science. Dark energy is dark energy. Some theists have a bad habit of trying to abduct certain real phenomenon and re-label it with religious jargon. What this illustrates to us is that religious folks don't have evidence for their specific claims.


Religion is not relevant to understanding what is true about the universe.

"Dark energy is dark energy."

What Is Dark Energy? Give the complete scientific explination of what dark energy is.

By the way.. Would you accept "god is god"?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
From my experiences here at RF, as well as at other forums, I have noticed that some people think they can postulate "cause-and-effect" of some phenomena, without the needs to present empirical physical EVIDENCE of the "cause".

This topic is about the Intelligent Design's faulty uses (and abuses) of "cause-and-effect" scenario.

In sciences, particularly Physical Sciences and Natural Sciences, testing the new hypothesis or existing (scientific) theory require observations of the evidence or of the experiments, regardless if it is the "cause" or the "effect", you would still need evidence for both.

So if you are going to formulate a hypothesis that include "cause-and-effect", then you would need evidence for the "cause" as much as you do with the "effect"...otherwise those advocating for "cause" is nothing more than speculative and highly subjective opinions.

I see YEC creationists do that, and I see Intelligent Design creationists do that too.

They think they can say creation (effect) is created by the Creator (cause), or design (effect) is intelligently designed by the Designer (cause), but are never able show that the cause physically exist, which would require physical evidence to support their claims for some "cause".

Both groups (YEC & ID) frequently used non-scientific sources, and they seemed to love using analogy in their reasoning for the Creator or for the Designer.

But analogy isn't evidence for anything. Using analogy is just comparing one thing to another thing, where they are totally unrelated. Examples, the Watchmaker analogy, the car analogy, computer analogy, the mouse trap analogy, etc.

But in real life, these analogies are faulty, because watches, cars, computer hardware or computer programming, and mouse trap are made by real people, not by some nonexistent invisible spirits, gods or this absurd Designer.

If you want to know who made the design of car's bodywork or the car's engine, then you can actually meet the person, the engineer or the designer, who would have a real job and real place (eg headquarters of car companies), and he or she would have real home, contact number, qualification, family (eg parents), etc.

The Intelligent Designer don't exist physically, so how can something that don't exist be responsible for the design of life on Earth or for the design of the universe?

The "Designer did it", is no better than using the "God did it" adage. It relied on subjective reasoning, which are susceptible to biases.

So if ID creationists cannot produce physical evidence for the "cause" like that of the Designer being the CAUSE, then Intelligent Design is nothing more than pure speculation of some entity that don't exist.

That's my 2-cent on the cause-and-effect. (Or 5-cent, since Australia no longer minted the 1-cent and 2-cent coins.) :D

What I have noticed with anti religious polemicists here (Not all), and the internet (again, not all) don't seem to gather that scientific evidences are not in the realm of metaphysical arguments. This is a common thing, but not scientific to do that. Educated atheists don't really engage with that kind of invalid polemics unless they make money off these apologetics or some other agenda. Because educated atheists just simply cannot be so badly mistaken.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Do you think the Big Bang is about something coming from nothing?

Define "nothing"

If energy and matter can't be created or destroyed, then they both always existed...they both existed pre-expansion.
Now some will argue there is no "pre" because our science breaks down and we can't understand it... yet everything that exists in our universe always existed, just in different form.

What did it come from?
What did it exist in?
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
So if religion says that the spiritual energy is omnipresent, and science says dark energy is omnipresent, is this not common ground.

Common ground? I don't know.

How do you know that spiritual energy is omnipresent?

And what is spirit? How do you know spirit is real? Can you observe it, measure it, test it?

From Einstein's Special Relativity was the famous mass-energy equivalence equation: E = m c^2

This equation only confirm the earlier relationship between mass and energy (eg relation between mass of object and potential/kinetic energy, Conservation of Energy & Conservation of Mass, etc).

Mass and energy can be measured, can be calculated.

Can you do the same for spiritual energy? Are there even mass in spirit?

My point is that when science talk of energy and when certain religions talk of energy, they are not talking about the same thing, so I really sure they are the same or at the very least what they have in common.

Religion accepts the 5% material universe that science studies, so there is common ground there too.

It is only very recently (last decade) that WMAP and Planck observations of universe, plus the uses of supercomputers from NASA and ESA that provided the most definitive calculations and measurements of the Universe's masses.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What I have noticed with anti religious polemicists here (Not all), and the internet (again, not all) don't seem to gather that scientific evidences are not in the realm of metaphysical arguments. This is a common thing, but not scientific to do that. Educated atheists don't really engage with that kind of invalid polemics unless they make money off these apologetics or some other agenda. Because educated atheists just simply cannot be so badly mistaken.

And you don't think there are no apologetics among religious people?

You don't think anti-science people don't exist among the religious people, especially YEC creationists and ID creationists?

Creationists aren't "biased"?

What stone have you been hiding under?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
And you don't think there are no apologetics among religious people?

You don't think anti-science people don't exist among the religious people, especially YEC creationists and ID creationists?

Creationists aren't "biased"?

What stone have you been hiding under?

"Creationists aren't "biased"?"

Isn't anyone that thinks, believes or accepts what is right to them biased against others that don't agree?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If energy and matter can't be created or destroyed, then they both always existed...they both existed pre-expantion.

It's energy and "mass".

Not matters.

Yes, there is also the conservation of matter as well, but I think you were referring to Conservation of Mass.

Some people confuse mass and matter as if they were one and the same. One and the same? No. Related? Yes, very much so. But energy is also related to matters.

Both mass and energy are properties of matters.

Mass and energy are also related.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
It's energy and "mass".

Not matters.

Yes, there is also the conservation of matter as well, but I think you were referring to Conservation of Mass.

Some people confuse mass and matter as if they were one and the same. One and the same? No. Related? Yes, very much so. But energy is also related to matters.

Both mass and energy are properties of matters.

Mass and energy are also related.

"Matter can change form through physical and chemical changes, but through any of these changes matter is conserved. The same amount of matter exists before and after the change—none is created or destoyed"

https://education.nationalgeographi...n-matter-during-physical-and-chemical-changes


With that said, every bit of matter that makes up everything in our universe today, already existed before the universe did.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
And you don't think there are no apologetics among religious people?

Oh there are. Lol. Why would you make a statement like that with some bizarre conjecture?

You don't think anti-science people don't exist among the religious people, especially YEC creationists and ID creationists?

Creationists aren't "biased"?

What stone have you been hiding under?

None of this is relevant to me. I didn't such things. So I can't respond to all of this.

I was addressing your point in the OP. Look at what you yourself mentioned. Physical Sciences, natural sciences etc. How in the world can "physical" sciences or "natural" sciences get involved in hypothesis testing or any of the sort in a "metaphysical" or "Supernatural" question or argument?

That's the point.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
"Creationists aren't "biased"?"

Isn't anyone that thinks, believes or accepts what is right to them biased against others that don't agree?

Not all theists disagree with science findings. Some do, some don't.

For examples, many Christians accept Evolution and some don't. Some accept the Big Bang, but again, some don't.

I think it is really dependent on the individual theists, especially how much education they have received, in what "scientific" fields they have worked in, etc.

For instance, @shunyadragon is Baha'i follower, have some education and experiences in science (I think he is geologist, though not too sure I remember correctly), he widely agree with Evolution, and I think he accept the Big Bang too, but another Baha'i (I don't remember his name) don't.

From my experience here and elsewhere, creationists tends to fall into the category of "some don't" in regards to sciences.
 
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