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Causes of the US Civil War and Southern Secession

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Smoke,

If that were true they would have risen against their own state governments, overthrown the institution of slavery, and established universal suffrage.

And then watch blacks suffer at the bottom rungs of society because of an imprudent decision? Gradual emancipation would have allowed the educating of slaves to function in society (this was Jefferson Davis' goal) and provided for a gradual transition from slave labor to priced labor for the slave owners.

And the secession was also more about economic issues like tariffs and government spending; these issues obviously include the concept of self-government.
 

Smoke

Done here.
And then watch blacks suffer at the bottom rungs of society because of an imprudent decision? Gradual emancipation would have allowed the educating of slaves to function in society (this was Jefferson Davis' goal) and provided for a gradual transition from slave labor to priced labor for the slave owners
That was not Jefferson Davis' goal. That's a flat-out lie.

However, if what you say were true, I'd have to ask what the Confederates had against poor whites. Why didn't they enslave them so they could go through a gradual emancipation and education? Wouldn't that have been better for the poor whites?
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Smoke,

That was not Jefferson Davis' goal. That's a flat-out lie.

Proof, because I have a quote from Davis saying that very thing.

However, if what you say were true, I'd have to ask what the Confederates had against poor whites. Why didn't they enslave them so they could go through a gradual emancipation and education? Wouldn't that have been better for the poor whites?

That is funny you say that because there is a quote from a former slave in the Slave Narratives who said, "It was better to be a ****** than a poor white man." So, there were instances where slaves were actually treated better than poor whites. But there seems to be a perception coming from you that Southerners didn't contemplate the morality of slavery. A lot of Southerners thought slavery was a morally evil. But it is an entirely a different question as to how to transition from slave labor to priced labor.

For example, I am pro-life. I believe that abortion is a moral evil. Yet, I support a gradual approach to addressing this evil. Using your logic I should start a war, kill thousands of people, destroy property and then maybe abortion will be severely restricted (the same example could be used with you and gay marriage). But I am not going to destroy all the good aspects of this society to remedy an evil. It would only make matters worse.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Davis,

Then let's see it. I hope it's not the one you've used already in this thread, taken out of context and twisted to mean the opposite of what Davis was saying.

How was that quote taken out of context?
 

Smoke

Done here.
How was that quote taken out of context?
We've already been over that. Davis didn't say that by way of explaining what he hoped to do; he said it to explain why he thought abolition was a pipe dream. He was a racist who absolutely didn't believe that black people were capable of achieving the same level of civilization as white people, and most Southern states, including Davis' own Mississippi, had laws prohibiting the education of slaves. Step one of this imaginary plan you're attributing to Davis would have been repealing those laws, something Davis had not even the slightest interest in doing.
 

Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
Hi Mercy,



But why was it okay for the colonists to secede and not the South? So far, no one in this thread has answered that question.

Again, whether or not secession is morally wrong is a gray area. Was it justifiable for overtaxed, underrepresented, harassed colonists who were denied several other rights? I believe that such a threshold had been crossed. Was it justifiable for politicians to secede over matters that, despite your attempts at quote-mining (which, I'm afraid to say, is a weak form of argumentation), ultimately boiled down to one reason and one reason only?

Another thing, while we're on this subject: How come that people who believe that America is the "greatest nation in the world" tend to be the same ones who believe it was okay for the Confederacy to secede? Does the greatest love for one's country include a belief that it's okay to legally separate from it? That's like telling your wife, "Honey, I love you so much that I want to divorce you." WTF?




But the Crown didn't buy any of those claims, yet the colonists didn't care what the Crown's reaction was, so why would the South have to worry what the US federal government’s reaction was?

Joe, let me repeat: I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT THE CROWN THINKS. My positions on two secessions, each that led up to the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, are the pro-America positions. I see a pro-America position from you on the Revolutionary War, but I can't detect your "pro-America-ness" in regards to the Civil War. Can you help us to understand why your views on the Civil War are also pro-America?




Don't you find it ironic that you say that the issue isn't black or white and then tell me to choose the pro-American side or the anti-American side, which is black or white? You sound like a jingoistic American that you no-doubt delightfully denounce (and who is also probably a southerner, oh, more irony).

Cut the strawman crap. I have no patience for it.


I would hope you would know my position from reading my posts in this thread. Just as I support the secession of the colonists from the Crown I support the South's secession from the US federal government. I would hope that just as Great Britain and the US could live together in this world peacefully (later on after The War of 1812) I would hope that the USA and the CSA could live together in this world peacefully.

Well there you go, ladies and gentlemen. Your position is anti-American to the core. Don't try to worm your way out of this, don't try to justify it. You just considered an illegitimate, illegal government to be as high and mighty as the United States of America. There is a term for that kind of talk, and it is called Disloyalty to the Union. Shame on you.

ETA: Wow, strong language on my part. Even around here, it's rare that I get that passionate. I guess I get p***ed off when people claim to use American values in order to hate America. "A house divided against itself cannot stand."
 
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Zeeboe

Member
The Southern states freely joined the Union, agreeing to settle all political disputes through free elections and ballots. When the person they did not want as President won the presidency, they rebelled, and how can you clam to be a democracy or even a Republic if you take the results of a legal and correct election, and throw out the results simply because you do not like them?
 
Tim Wise » Virginia is for Liars: Neo-Confederate Mythology, Racist Realities and Genuine Southern Heroes

What the Confederacy Was Not About
To suggest, as the neo-confederates do that the seceding states left the Union to preserve “state’s rights” as a principle–separate and apart from the right to maintain slavery in those states, specifically–is absurd. After all, the rights that southern leaders felt were being impeded were specifically those rights tied to the maintenance of the slave system, and its extension into new territories in the West, recently added to the nation as a result of the war with Mexico. Because the Republican Party and Lincoln were “free soilers”–dedicated to banning slavery in the new territories–the slaveocracies of the South were convinced that their economic systems would be crippled over time, as they became outvoted in the Congress, and as the nation moved to a free labor system, as opposed to one deeply reliant on enslavement.

That the only “state’s rights” being fought for were the rights of said states to operate a slave system was attested to by southern leaders themselves. In December of 1860, Alabama sent commissioners to the other slave states to advocate for their secession. One of the commissioners was Stephen Hale, whose job was to persuade Kentucky to leave the Union. In his letter to the Governor of Kentucky, he asked and answered the question as to which “state’s rights” were being violated by the North.
“…what rights have been denied, what wrongs have been done, or threatened to be done, of which the Southern states, or the people of the Southern states, can complain?” he asked. In the very next paragraph he offered the answer, clearly and unmistakably:

“African slavery has not only become one of the fixed domestic institutions of the Southern states, but forms an important element of their political power, and constitutes the most valuable species of their property…forming, in fact, the basis upon which rests the prosperity and wealth of most of these states…It is upon this gigantic interest, this peculiar institution of the South, that the Northern states and their people have been waging an unrelenting and fanatical war for the last quarter of a century. An institution with which is bound up, not only the wealth and prosperity of the Southern people, but their very existence as a political community…They attack us through their literature, in their schools, from the hustings, in their legislative halls, through the public press…to strike down the rights of the Southern slave-holder, and override every barrier which the Constitution has erected for his protection.”
So too, the conflict was not about trade and tariff issues, as often claimed by the revisionists. Although the South had long opposed high tariffs on goods from England–which had a disproportionate impact on the South because they raised the cost of goods the region needed and which were not locally produced, and also made it more costly for Britain to purchase southern cotton–by the time of secession, the tariffs had been cut dramatically. Alexander Stephens, who would become Vice-President of the Confederacy noted as much when he spoke to the Georgia legislature in 1860, explaining:

“The tariff no longer distracts the public councils. Reason has triumphed…The present tariff was voted for by Massachusetts and South Carolina. The lion and the lamb lay down together–every man in the Senate and the House from Massachusetts and South Carolina, I think, voted for it…(the duties) were made just as low as Southern men asked them to be, and those are the rates they are now at.”

The fact is, the worst of all tariffs ever imposed–known in popular lore as the Tariff of Abominations–had been most harshly enforced during the Presidency of Andrew Jackson, a Southerner. Yet no state save South Carolina ever threatened secession over this “mother of all tariffs,” suggesting that it alone (or others like it, even less harsh) would hardly have been a significant contributor to the rupture of 1860-1861.
 

Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
"African slavery has not only become one of the fixed domestic institutions of the Southern states, but forms an important element of their political power, and constitutes the most valuable species of their property…forming, in fact, the basis upon which rests the prosperity and wealth of most of these states…"

Dear god, that's a straight-up confession that the South's economy was, at least prior to the Civil War, built on the backs of black slaves.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
People fought in the Civil War for a wide variety of reasons. There were multitudinous "rallying cries."

I read a very interesting book that was a collection of letters from soldiers on both sides of the war to their loved ones at home.

What was so interesting is that when they discussed their reasons or rationales for fighting, their reasons were all over the place. Some Northerners were passionate about the civil rights of slaves, while others held African Americans in utter contempt and denied wanting to give them the most basic human rights. Some southerners were opposed to slavery but felt the war was being fought over states' rights, while others honestly seemed to think that slavery was an honorable institution.
 
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