Cessation of Suffering and Rebirth...Why?

[Runewolf1973]

So if the end result of the Buddhist path is the cessation of suffering and rebirth, does that not amount to just another desire or craving of sorts? What happens if one does not desire the cessation of suffering or the cessation of the rebirth cycle? Oneness with Brahman the way I see it, is to simply do what nature does and that means to continually change, transform...to basically do what energy or matter does. The continuation of that natural transformative cycle. Rather than desire the release from this cyclic, transformative nature of existence, should we not simply accept our place in this existence and "roll with the tide" so to speak? Through reincarnation or rebirth I have no desire to achieve some higher enlightened state. All is Brahman. The way I see it, there is no higher enlightened state. There is nothing to gain, nothing to achieve, no ultimate goal, simply BE the Brahman.

 

[von bek]

Buddhists do not believe in Brahman.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Buddhists do not believe in Brahman.

Or at least not as typically portrayed.

 

[von bek]

What happens if one does not desire the cessation of suffering or the cessation of the rebirth cycle?

Then you can keep suffering. When you get tired of it, you can always start down the path.

Oneness with Brahman the way I see it, is to simply do what nature does and that means to continually change, transform...to basically do what energy or matter does.

There is no Brahman.

All is Brahman. The way I see it, there is no higher enlightened state. There is nothing to gain, nothing to achieve, no ultimate goal, simply BE the Brahman.

The Buddha taught that there is no such thing as Brahman. Buddhism is not Hinduism.

 

[von bek]

Then you can keep suffering. When you get tired of it, you can always start down the path.

My apologies for that wording. Reading it over, it sounds like I am telling you to suffer.:sorry1:

I am only trying to say that without the cessation of suffering, the only possibility is the continuation of suffering.

 

[Runewolf1973]

There is no Brahman.
The Buddha taught that there is no such thing as Brahman. Buddhism is not Hinduism.

Thanks for clarifying, I should have said Nirvana, not Brahman.

Then you can keep suffering. When you get tired of it, you can always start down the path.

The path to what? Something that one desires, or wants, or craves to be liberated from? Freedom from the cycle of death and rebirth? Freedom from suffering? That would be the ultimate form of craving or desire would it not? Why crave this? Why not just accept it as a part of nature's way? As long as there are conscious creatures there will always be suffering in some form or another and there will always be death and rebirth. There is no escaping this fact. For me to crave for myself to be released from this suffering whilst other creatures continue to suffer demonstrates what? Does one creature deserve to suffer less than another? Do I deserve liberation while others do not? Perhaps that is the ego...selfishness. If others cannot be liberated from this suffering, then I care not to be liberated from this suffering. I accept it as the way of life.


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[Runewolf1973]

My apologies for that wording. Reading it over, it sounds like I am telling you to suffer.:sorry1:

I am only trying to say that without the cessation of suffering, the only possibility is the continuation of suffering.

I guess the way I look at it is that as long as there are conscious creatures, there will always be suffering. It is the natural way of the world for conscious creatures to suffer. It is like the price to pay for being conscious. The cessation of that suffering the way I see it, would amount to the cessation of consciousness.

No apologies necessary.


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[von bek]

Thanks for clarifying, I should have said Nirvana, not Brahman.




The path to what? Something that one desires, or wants, or craves to be liberated from? Freedom from the cycle of death and rebirth? Freedom from suffering? That would be the ultimate form of craving or desire would it not? Why crave this? Why not just accept it as a part of nature's way? As long as there are conscious creatures there will always be suffering in some form or another and there will always be death and rebirth. There is no escaping this fact. For me to crave for myself to be released from this suffering whilst other creatures continue to suffer demonstrates what? Does one creature deserve to suffer less than another? Do I deserve liberation while others do not? Perhaps that is the ego...selfishness. If others cannot be liberated from this suffering, then I care not to be liberated from this suffering. I accept it as the way of life.


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You speak of what leads to the bodhisattva path. Wanting the liberation of others before yourself is a great aspiration. I share your thought on this. I want my mom and dad to be free of pain and suffering. For that reason, I work my path. To free my friends, my cat, I work. To free those who have hurt me, I must work. Even when it is hard. The Buddha teaches we can do this, and we must. And not for simply this life. I have had countless mothers and father, friends, cats, and foes! The highest understanding is to direct perfect loving-kindness to all beings, while knowing that in fact there are no beings to liberate at all. I can only talk about it with words; but, I am still treading the path to its experience.

Read Shantideva. I think you will like what you see.
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Bud.../A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life.pdf

 

[Twilight Hue]

I guess the way I look at it is that as long as there are conscious creatures, there will always be suffering. It is the natural way of the world for conscious creatures to suffer. It is like the price to pay for being conscious. The cessation of that suffering the way I see it, would amount to the cessation of consciousness.

Would suffering be suffering if supposed one would be enabled to endure and traverse physically and mentally through such things?

Emptiness guarantees the eventual cessation of suffering of by which consciousness enables the experience. We formulate such sensations as being suffering by our adversity to such experiences and the manner by which we react upon each onset.

It seems however when you become suffering, suffering ceases.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I do not forsee the cessation of anything really. Nothing ceases, it only changes form. Rather, I forsee the continuation of that natural cycle of death and rebirth and the continuation of consciousness and suffering however unfortunate that may seem. The true key (I believe) to our liberation from suffering will not be found in some far distant future after many rebirths. That liberation will be found in the Here and Now. It is in the Here and Now. The little joys in life, the love we share for each other, a helping hand, friendship, the smile of a child, the playfulness of a puppy...and so much more. That is our liberation from suffering...all those little things in the Here and Now which make us happy which we oftentimes take for granted and in that moment of happiness cause us to forget our suffering. There will always be bad times, so we must make the best of all our good times and remember them and cherish them. Our other liberation from suffering is in fact that very cycle of death and rebirth itself. We cannot suffer permanently, things always change, and that is in fact a blessing of nature. As we live we may suffer, but as we die that suffering comes to and end and we are reborn into a new conscious existence full of it's own liberation and it's own suffering. The cycle goes on.

 

[von bek]

I guess the way I look at it is that as long as there are conscious creatures, there will always be suffering. It is the natural way of the world for conscious creatures to suffer. It is like the price to pay for being conscious. The cessation of that suffering the way I see it, would amount to the cessation of consciousness.

No apologies necessary.


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The cause of suffering is the craving of and clinging to the objects of our consciousness. By eliminating grasping, aversion, and delusional thinking about sense objects, we will free ourselves from suffering. When the Buddha achieved Awakening, he did not disappear in a puff of smoke. He traveled and taught for another fifty years in his physical body.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The cause of suffering is the craving of and clinging to the objects of our consciousness. By eliminating grasping, aversion, and delusional thinking about sense objects, we will free ourselves from suffering. When the Buddha achieved Awakening, he did not disappear in a puff of smoke. He traveled and taught for another fifty years in his physical body.

Is not the wanting or desire of a cessation to this suffering the same as a craving or clinging to an object of our consciousness? When it becomes no longer wanted, nor desired, then no longer does it become a craving and no longer does it become a suffering. It becomes a part of nature and as such it simply is what it is...an experience of nature. For us to accept all else, we must first accept that suffering is a part of nature. How does one know light without darkness, or darkness without light? When you accept both the light and the dark, all becomes illuminated.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I do not forsee the cessation of anything really. Nothing ceases, it only changes form. Rather, I forsee the continuation of that natural cycle of death and rebirth and the continuation of consciousness and suffering however unfortunate that may seem. The true key (I believe) to our liberation from suffering will not be found in some far distant future after many rebirths. That liberation will be found in the Here and Now. It is in the Here and Now. The little joys in life, the love we share for each other, a helping hand, friendship, the smile of a child, the playfulness of a puppy...and so much more. That is our liberation from suffering...all those little things which make us happy which we oftentimes take for granted. There will always be bad times, so we must make the best of all our good times and remember them and cherish them. Our other liberation from suffering is in fact that very cycle of death and rebirth itself. We cannot suffer permanently, things always change, and that is in fact a blessing of nature. As we live we may suffer, but as we die that suffering comes to and end and we are reborn into a new conscious existence full of it's own liberation and it's own suffering. The cycle goes on.

Your aforementioned views and perspective are uncannely close to my own btw. "0)

I think the crux lies as you say in the here and now, of which liberation comes via the nature of emptiness and realisation by which all manifestations rise and fall as we experience such. Cessation to me, to clarify, equates neutrality by which suffering is extinguished, once you recognise it's not really at all separate, and you are in essence suffering personified. When you become the true nature of suffering, suffering ceases. Then nanoseconds later, the thoughts, usually reactive, come roaring in like a freight train..............

 

[Runewolf1973]

Your aforementioned views and perspective are uncannely close to my own btw. "0)

I think the crux lies as you say in the here and now, of which liberation comes via the nature of emptiness and realisation by which all manifestations rise and fall as we experience such. Cessation to me, to clarify, equates neutrality by which suffering is extinguished, once you recognise it's not really at all separate, and you are in essence suffering personified. When you become the true nature of suffering, suffering ceases. Then nanoseconds later, the thoughts, usually reactive, come roaring in like a freight train..............

I like that how you describe it.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I will give an example...

When I was younger we had a neighbor who's older son was severely mentally disabled. He could hardly communicate, but he always, always had the biggest smile on his face. He was always the happy. Everyone else felt sorry for him because of his condition, and they perceived him as undergoing some great suffering. However, he did not think as other people did. He did not think of himself as someone who was suffering from a condition or possibly dying, therefore he was in a way liberated from that suffering and all he knew was to keep smiling.

If we can control how the mind perceives suffering, we can live without suffering and we can have that Nirvana in the Here and Now.


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[Runewolf1973]

But that doesn't make sense...

How is that mental disability or that person who is suffering not due to some previous Karma?

Perhaps it is, but when you live truly in the Here and Now and you take your mind out of it and stop thinking about it (still the mind), then there is no Karma, there is only the Here and Now. We can choose to accept the light (happiness), or we can choose to accept the dark (suffering), but only when we choose to accept both As One and not let our minds dwell on just one or the other, will we experience that liberation or that illumination which is Nirvana.

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[Benst]

I think you're misunderstanding the Buddhist idea of suffering. Nibbana is a cessation of cause-effect, of change. Change causes us to suffer because of feelings that arise when someone dies, attachment to people, places, things that are destined to change and decay. Nibbana is not a desire to end suffering, but instead a desire to end the root cause of suffering. If you limit your senses in order to perceive suffering differently, it will only be a stop-gap measure until you are reincarnated as something else that will again perceive the suffering. The individual with the disability you're talking about above, to a Buddhist, would be living that way because of his karma in the past...but he is still subject to the illusion that this world exists.

You're right though, mindfulness that is thinking in the here and now, is one of the building blocks of Buddhist practice. See the world as it really is, don't become attached to things. By living in the immediate, you let go of attachments to the past (nostalgia) and also let go of wondering about the future. But, this is only practice... it isn't Nibanna yet. Nibanna is a point where you are so far beyond cause and effect that you don't exist anymore, because there really isn't anything in you that is permanent.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I think you're misunderstanding the Buddhist idea of suffering. Nibbana is a cessation of cause-effect, of change. Change causes us to suffer because of feelings that arise when someone dies, attachment to people, places, things that are destined to change and decay. Nibbana is not a desire to end suffering, but instead a desire to end the root cause of suffering. If you limit your senses in order to perceive suffering differently, it will only be a stop-gap measure until you are reincarnated as something else that will again perceive the suffering. The individual with the disability you're talking about above, to a Buddhist, would be living that way because of his karma in the past...but he is still subject to the illusion that this world exists.

You're right though, mindfulness that is thinking in the here and now, is one of the building blocks of Buddhist practice. See the world as it really is, don't become attached to things. By living in the immediate, you let go of attachments to the past (nostalgia) and also let go of wondering about the future. But, this is only practice... it isn't Nibanna yet. Nibanna is a point where you are so far beyond cause and effect that you don't exist anymore, because there really isn't anything in you that is permanent.

Not misunderstanding...understanding differently.

Whether it is a desire to end suffering or a desire to end the root cause of suffering, it is still a desire we must let go of. In the end we are to forget everything we know or everything we think we know and just let it be. There is nothing that is permanent because there is always change. That change brings forth that liberation, but we must not force that change and let it happen naturally. As they say..."Do without doing and everything get's done."

 

[crossfire]

Not misunderstanding...understanding differently.

Whether it is a desire to end suffering or a desire to end the root cause of suffering, it is still a desire we must let go of. In the end we are to forget everything we know or everything we think we know and just let it be. There is nothing that is permanent because there is always change. That change brings forth that liberation, but we must not force that change and let it happen naturally. As they say..."Do without doing and everything get's done."

From the Noble Eightfold Path: Right effort
Magga-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Path

"And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.​

Since kamma (karma) is intention, (see this sutta,) the kamma created by this intention is called kamma that is neither-bright-nor-dark, which is the kamma that leads to the cessation of kamma.

noaimiloa: THE FOUR KINDS OF KAMMA - The Buddha

To say that one must abandon the desire for the cessation of suffering is to invalidate the noble eightfold path, and everything Buddha taught about it. This is invalidating the very heart of Buddha's teachings.

 

[Benst]

Not misunderstanding...understanding differently.

Whether it is a desire to end suffering or a desire to end the root cause of suffering, it is still a desire we must let go of. In the end we are to forget everything we know or everything we think we know and just let it be. There is nothing that is permanent because there is always change. That change brings forth that liberation, but we must not force that change and let it happen naturally. As they say..."Do without doing and everything get's done."

That's one perspective, I get you I do. it's not how the Buddhists would look at it though. Buddha's main point of offering the path of liberation was to create an out for all beings. What you're describing isn't ending the cycle of reincarnation by ending all attachments and all karmic causes and effects, but simply going with it.

You see, desire is not the issue, it's the attachments that come with attachment. Attachment to anything in this universe is a karmic bond that will make you continue to go through those cycles. However, an attachment to Nibbana is antithesis to the prior statement because Nibanna is non-existence. Wanting it is not got going to create an attachment to it because there's nothing to attach onto.