Cessation of Suffering and Rebirth...Why?

[ratikala]

namaskaram runewolf :namaste

I know it sounds harsh and it may be percieved as going against the path or the teachings of Buddha, but consider this...

In order for one to become the Buddha, one must first abandon the Buddha.

in respects this is true , 'Buddha' is an epithet for enlightened one as Buddha comes from the sanskrit Buddhi ; intelegience , ...so Buddha is inteligence personified , an enlightened being , ...so the Buddha of whom we speak who dilivered the teachings on the four noble truths and the eightfold path , is the Buddha of this age .

the simple fact that he attained enlightenment ;a state of all knowing , without a teacher , guide , or path shows us that it is possible to do this alone , it is not easy , infact it is extraordinary , but it is possible .
however out of kindness Lord Buddha gave the teachings on the four noble truths for our benifit we are free to use this system and to follow the eightfold path . but it is also possible to become (not 'the' Buddha) but 'A' Buddha , A fully enlightened one :namaste

 

[Twilight Hue]

I know it sounds harsh and it may be percieved as going against the path or the teachings of Buddha, but consider this...

In order for one to become the Buddha, one must first abandon the Buddha.

I regard a slightly inverse approach , Ye must abandon the Buddha to realise your the Buddha. *grin*

I cheat with mirrors.

 

[Runewolf1973]

namaskaram runewolf :namaste




in respects this is true , 'Buddha' is an epithet for enlightened one as Buddha comes from the sanskrit Buddhi ; intelegience , ...so Buddha is inteligence personified , an enlightened being , ...so the Buddha of whom we speak who dilivered the teachings on the four noble truths and the eightfold path , is the Buddha of this age .

the simple fact that he attained enlightenment ;a state of all knowing , without a teacher , guide , or path shows us that it is possible to do this alone , it is not easy , infact it is extraordinary , but it is possible .
however out of kindness Lord Buddha gave the teachings on the four noble truths for our benifit we are free to use this system and to follow the eightfold path . but it is also possible to become (not 'the' Buddha) but 'A' Buddha , A fully enlightened one :namaste

Thank you, ratikala. :namaste

 

[Runewolf1973]

I regard a slightly inverse approach , Ye must abandon the Buddha to realise your the Buddha. *grin*

I cheat with mirrors.

I like that approach.

 

[Tarheeler]

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[Runewolf1973]

There is no debate. It's all an illusion, a trick of the mind. Let go of those illusions or attachments and you will see there was never anything to debate about in the first place.

 

[crossfire]

There is no debate. It's all an illusion, a trick of the mind. Let go of those illusions or attachments and you will see there was never anything to debate about in the first place.

From Bing Dictionary:

Definition of delusion (n)

Bing Dictionary
de·lu·sion
[ di lóoz͟h'n ]


1.false belief: a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of a psychiatric condition
2.mistaken notion: a false or mistaken belief or idea about something
​

Buddhism is about freeing your mind from greed, hatred, and delusion.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

My apologies for that wording. Reading it over, it sounds like I am telling you to suffer.:sorry1:

I am only trying to say that without the cessation of suffering, the only possibility is the continuation of suffering.

What's wrong with suffering?

 

[crossfire]

What's wrong with suffering?

It can make people crazy.
Dukkha Sutta: Stress

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying in Magadha in Nalaka Village. Then Jambukhadika the wanderer went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After this exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "'Stress, stress,' it is said, my friend Sariputta. Which type of stress [are they referring to]?"

"There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."

"But is there a path, is there a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"Then what is the path, what is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path, my friend — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the path, this is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"It's an auspicious path, my friend, an auspicious practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness — enough for the sake of heedfulness."​

 

[Runewolf1973]

From Bing Dictionary:

Definition of delusion (n)

Bing Dictionary
de·lu·sion
[ di lóoz͟h'n ]


1.false belief: a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of a psychiatric condition
2.mistaken notion: a false or mistaken belief or idea about something
​

Buddhism is about freeing your mind from greed, hatred, and delusion.

Exactly what I was getting at.

 

[Straw Dog]

So if the end result of the Buddhist path is the cessation of suffering and rebirth, does that not amount to just another desire or craving of sorts? What happens if one does not desire the cessation of suffering or the cessation of the rebirth cycle? Oneness with Brahman the way I see it, is to simply do what nature does and that means to continually change, transform...to basically do what energy or matter does. The continuation of that natural transformative cycle. Rather than desire the release from this cyclic, transformative nature of existence, should we not simply accept our place in this existence and "roll with the tide" so to speak? Through reincarnation or rebirth I have no desire to achieve some higher enlightened state. All is Brahman. The way I see it, there is no higher enlightened state. There is nothing to gain, nothing to achieve, no ultimate goal, simply BE the Brahman.

Didn't Brahman choose to become us?

Setting our minds against the natural flow of things does cause exessive suffering because it creates a relatively shallow ego conception. At the same time, it's more a matter of working with the flow rather than just following behind it. It's an active participation rather than just a passive observation. This leads to enduring the suffering of change and facilitating positive transformation. It shouldn't be about craving some future ideal state, but rather savoring the present experience totally, which is where transformation is actually taking place.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Didn't Brahman choose to become us?

Setting our minds against the natural flow of things does cause exessive suffering because it creates a relatively shallow ego conception. At the same time, it's more a matter of working with the flow rather than just following behind it. It's an active participation rather than just a passive observation. This leads to enduring the suffering of change and facilitating positive transformation. It shouldn't be about craving some future ideal state, but rather savoring the present experience totally, which is where transformation is actually taking place.

Yes. I agree with you entirely. In this way we do without doing.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It can make people crazy.
Dukkha Sutta: Stress

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying in Magadha in Nalaka Village. Then Jambukhadika the wanderer went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After this exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "'Stress, stress,' it is said, my friend Sariputta. Which type of stress [are they referring to]?"

"There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."

"But is there a path, is there a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"Then what is the path, what is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path, my friend — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the path, this is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"It's an auspicious path, my friend, an auspicious practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness — enough for the sake of heedfulness."​

You are talking about stress. I was asking about suffering.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

You are talking about stress. I was asking about suffering.

This thread started in the Buddhism DIR. In Buddhism, the word dukkha has been translated as stress, suffering, unsatisfactoriness, and a few others.

 

[crossfire]

You are talking about stress. I was asking about suffering.

A detailed explanation of dukkha:
Dukkha

Here's the wiki on dukkha:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha

 

[sandy whitelinger]

A detailed explanation of dukkha:
Dukkha

Here's the wiki on dukkha:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha

Ok, then I still see nothing in what you offered that correlates suffering leading to dying. And if you manage to do that please explain what is wrong with dying.

 

[crossfire]

Ok, then I still see nothing in what you offered that correlates suffering leading to dying. And if you manage to do that please explain what is wrong with dying.

LOL, this thread is prolly gonna die a quick death outside of the Buddhism DIR.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

LOL, this thread is prolly gonna die a quick death outside of the Buddhism DIR.

So, you don't care to either educate me or answer my question?

 

[Runewolf1973]

So, you don't care to either educate me or answer my question?

Basically. Let's just hope this thread goes away and we don't have to answer those questions. Well that's kinda what I felt I was getting in response to my OP. There were a few on here that actually seemed to know their stuff and could understand what I was getting at (they knew I wasn't trying to be challenging or debating, I was simply sharing my understanding), then there were others on here who seemed to take what I had to say as a challenge or an attack against their "way" or their "path" and preferred I just went away. Well, at least we know who the real Buddhists are.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Basically. Let's just hope this thread goes away and we don't have to answer those questions. Well that's kinda what I felt I was getting in response to my OP. There were a few on here that actually seemed to know their stuff and could understand what I was getting at (they knew I wasn't trying to be challenging or debating, I was simply sharing my understanding), then there were others on here who seemed to take what I had to say as a challenge or an attack against their "way" or their "path" and preferred I just went away. Well, at least we know who the real Buddhists are.

So, I'm still left with a question that no one of any faith, or lack of faith, has answered, and that is, "What is wrong with suffering?"