Cessation of Suffering and Rebirth...Why?

[sandy whitelinger]

The theory for some is to have little or zero want in light of it.

Isn't desiring to have no desire a desire in it's self?

 

[Sees]

Or, I could ask the question, "What is right with happiness?" Is an eternal search for happiness without suffering just a form of hedonism?

Right is all about happiness though What is right is what is good...what is good is what is desirable, beneficial, healthful, helpful, etc. In every way imaginable happiness is there.

Search for happiness without suffering is foolishness depending on definitions.

 

[crossfire]

Or, I could ask the question, "What is right with happiness?" Is an eternal search for happiness without suffering just a form of hedonism?

The first words of Buddha's first talk after his awakening:

"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.​

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

It's the middle path between self-indulgence and self-affliction of discernment of what is profitable and what is unprofitable. You eat, but don't overeat. If you need medicine to heal, take it. If you don't, then don't take it recreationally.

 

[Sees]

Isn't desiring to have no desire a desire in it's self?

It's semantics mostly.

Dissolving into the great Abyss isn't any part of my own path, religion, philosophy.

 

[crossfire]

Isn't desiring to have no desire a desire in it's self?

From the Noble Eightfold path: Right Effort:

"And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.​

 

[sandy whitelinger]

From the Noble Eightfold path: Right Effort:

"And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.​

I can live with that. Does desiring cheesecake fit in as a good desire?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The first words of Buddha's first talk after his awakening:

"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.​

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

It's the middle path between self-indulgence and self-affliction of discernment of what is profitable and what is unprofitable. You eat, but don't overeat. If you need medicine to heal, take it. If you don't, then don't take it recreationally.

Isn't it kind of obvious that moderating the extremes is a more sustainable way of life?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It's semantics mostly.

I find a good grasp of semantics leads to more fruitful communication.

 

[Sees]

Isn't it kind of obvious that moderating the extremes is a more sustainable way of life?

We would hope but moderation and self-control doesn't seem as common as they should be.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Right is all about happiness though What is right is what is good...what is good is what is desirable, beneficial, healthful, helpful, etc. In every way imaginable happiness is there.

Search for happiness without suffering is foolishness depending on definitions.

It still sounds like hedonism to me. Suppose it is right that one suffers for the happiness of others?

 

[crossfire]

Isn't it kind of obvious that moderating the extremes is a more sustainable way of life?

Then why were you arguing using the extremes in the hedonism quip?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

We would hope but moderation and self-control doesn't seem as common as they should be.

While moderation works well for me, extremism seems to work as well for some, I have no problem with that as long as their extremism doesn't interfere with my moderation too extremely.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Then why were you arguing using the extremes in the hedonism quip?

I don't understand your question.

 

[Sees]

It still sounds like hedonism to me. Suppose it is right that one suffers for the happiness of others?

It is at times.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It is at times.

It's the foundation of Christianity.

 

[Sees]

It's the foundation of Christianity.

How would describe in so many words? Do you feel most Christians are willing to sacrifice for others?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

How would describe in so many words? Do you feel most Christians are willing to sacrifice for others?

The ultimate example is that Christ suffered and died for the redemption of mankind. Do many Christians do this? Certainly not a majority.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I guess this thread goes to show that as much as we try, there is no escaping our desires, cravings, and indulgences, just as there is no escaping suffering or dying. It is all a natural part of our conscious existence. IMO, we should accept these things as they come naturally, but not dwell on them. It is when we dwell excessively on our desires that they turn into monsters of the mind.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I guess this thread goes to show that as much as we try, there is no escaping our desires, cravings, and indulgences, just as there is no escaping suffering or dying. It is all a natural part of our conscious existence. IMO, we should accept these things as they come naturally, but not dwell on them. It is when we dwell excessively on our desires that they turn into monsters of the mind.

My favorite philosopher said, "I yam what I yam." I could paraphrase here and say, "Life is what it is."

 

[Runewolf1973]

My favorite philosopher said, "I yam what I yam." I could paraphrase here and say, "Life is what it is."

That in essence is true.