Challenge for atheists/ atheist position

[leibowde84]

Well let's slow this down and address each thing on your list one at a time. Wouldn't you agree that if these things exist then there must be a mechanism by which they operate? Let's start with your first item 'Karma'. How do you think Karma operates? Is there some mysterious force that can determine subjectively what is good/bad and return good/bad? Most atheists would say 'No' to that last question.

No, they wouldn't. But that doesn't mean that they don't still believe in karma.

 

[leibowde84]

Can you convince me there isn't a notoriously evasive squirrel names Lars on the planet Mars? Here is the thing though, I'm not going to tell you anything about Lars at all. You'll have to simply present your argument, or realize that you don't have an argument suitable and pass on the challenge... challenge... challenge... challenge... I'm an honest person, totally not, like, all in love with Lars; just believe in him. No tricks here.

Exactly.

 

[leibowde84]

Still no one can convince you that you are incorrect in your theism it seems

He didn't give us anything to convince him of. He didn't provide his beliefs.

 

[leibowde84]

The problem is that they are claiming to know what 'x' is. You see, you are turning ''your problem'', into mine. This doesn't follow logic

Everyone is merely claiming to not know what you mean by "theism", specifically. Why wouldn't you want to provide that? I don't get it. Are you just trying to keep it super vague so you don't have to present an argument?

 

[Willamena]

I am interested in how you have reached your position of atheist, then. If you mean atheism in a broad sense, but admit that a broad argument cannot be presented against theism,... does this put into question, the surety of your atheistic position?

A broad argument against theism isn't quite what you asked for. Any argument against would not necessarily convince you that you are incorrect in any way. It's just an argument.

 

[leibowde84]

I am interested in how you have reached your position of atheist, then. If you mean atheism in a broad sense, but admit that a broad argument cannot be presented against theism,... does this put into question, the surety of your atheistic position?

I am interested as to why you keep referring to how atheists use of the word "atheist" generally. It seems like you are pointing out that "atheist's" get to hide behind a vague term, while no one goes by "theist". Their classification that they identify with is far more specific as to what their worldview is (Muslim, Christian, Orthodox/Reformed Jew, Hindi, Buddhist, etc.).

But, that merely speaks to the term "atheism" itself being vague (just as you have shown "theism" to be with this thread), or, at the very best, a semantical argument.

But, if my assumptions about the beliefs in question in the OP are incorrect, forgive me, as you have repeatedly refused to state, specifically, what those beliefs are (beyond "theism in general", of course).

 

[George-ananda]

No, they wouldn't. But that doesn't mean that they don't still believe in karma.

Then you would have to clarify what you mean by Karma but I'm sure it still will be something MOST atheists do not accept.

 

[leibowde84]

Then you would have to clarify what you mean by Karma but I'm sure it still will be something MOST atheists do not accept.

My point is that assuming that those who identify as "atheist" are "materialists" is a foolish practice. Atheism is evolving constantly, just like every other world view has. Like "theism" it should not be used to stand for anything other than a lack of belief in the existence of God/gods. I'm sure that, over time, the present classes of "strong, weak, and agnostic/gnostic" will gain popularity, but, until then, we should be respectful and refrain from assuming the worldview specifics. At least treating the term "atheism" with the same caution as we all do with "theism".

 

[leibowde84]

Then you would have to clarify what you mean by Karma but I'm sure it still will be something MOST atheists do not accept.

Sorry, meant to include this:

Karma: the belief that all of your actions will have equal reprecussions, affecting you.

 

[George-ananda]

My point is that assuming that those who identify as "atheist" are "materialists" is a foolish practice. Atheism is evolving constantly, just like every other world view has. Like "theism" it should not be used to stand for anything other than a lack of belief in the existence of God/gods. I'm sure that, over time, the present classes of "strong, weak, and agnostic/gnostic" will gain popularity, but, until then, we should be respectful and refrain from assuming the worldview specifics. At least treating the term "atheism" with the same caution as we all do with "theism".

What I said though is still true that 'Most atheists are materialists'. And I think you are looking at 'materialism' as a negative term when it is not meant to be. It says that there is nothing beyond physical matter and its interactions. Most atheists believe this.

 

[George-ananda]

Karma: the belief that all of your actions will have equal reprecussions, affecting you.

What mechanism could possibly control such a phenomena? It is superstition to MOST atheists.

 

[leibowde84]

What I said though is still true that 'Most atheists are materialists'. And I think you are looking at 'materialism' as a negative term when it is not meant to be. It says that there is nothing beyond physical matter and its interactions. Most atheists believe this.

I agree on the meaning of the term, and I disagree that "most atheists are materialists". But, that being said, my real issue is with people automatically adding materialism to any claim of atheism. I think that is disrespectful, personally. Just ask about specifics.

 

[leibowde84]

What mechanism could possibly control such a phenomena? It is superstition to MOST atheists.

Do you have any verifiable support to back this up? If not, we have to agree to disagree on this specific point. But, it leads into the more important issue of assuming "atheism" means "materialism" as well.

 

[George-ananda]

I agree on the meaning of the term, and I disagree that "most atheists are materialists". But, that being said, my real issue is with people automatically adding materialism to any claim of atheism.

I only add the term when it fits the case.

I think that is disrespectful, personally. Just ask about specifics.

To say 'Most crows are black' is a correct statement. Again, many atheists are proud to defend 'materialism'. It is not a disrespectful term.

 

[George-ananda]

Do you have any verifiable support to back this up?

If we did a poll of atheists and asked if they believe Karma is controlled by something immaterial most would say 'No' I think we would all agree.

If not, we have to agree to disagree on this specific point. But, it leads into the more important issue of assuming "atheism" means "materialism" as well.

Atheism does not mean materialism but most atheists are materialists.

 

[leibowde84]

If we did a poll of atheists and asked if they believe Karma is controlled by something immaterial most would say 'No' I think we would all agree.

Atheism does not mean materialism but most atheists are materialists.

You keep on saying "most atheists are materialists" again and again. Can you support it with anything verifiable?

 

[George-ananda]

You keep on saying "most atheists are materialists" again and again. Can you support it with anything verifiable?

Yes, here is the about.com article in the Atheism-Agnosticism section on Materialism written by popular author and atheist Austin Cline

What is materialism by Austin Cline

Atheism and Materialism: (key sentence from article)
Atheists are usually materialists of some sort, rejecting the idea that there exists anything independent of the workings of matter and energy.

Read the article and you might better understand what 'materialism' means and why saying "Most atheists are Materialists" is not even controversial.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes, here is the about.com article in the Atheism-Agnosticism section on Materialism written by popular author and atheist Austin Cline

What is materialism by Austin Cline

Atheism and Materialism: (key sentence from article)
Atheists are usually materialists of some sort, rejecting the idea that there exists anything independent of the workings of matter and energy.

Read the article and you might better understand what 'materialism' means and why saying "Most atheists are Materialists" is not even controversial.

My point is that "atheism" is an evolving term, meaning different things to different people. The only absolute necessity is the lack of belief in God/gods. Anything beyond that should not be assumed. Whether it is "controversial" is of no concern to me. I think that, from the evidence I've seen, it seems to be an unreasonable assumption.

 

[Curious George]

Can you convince me there isn't a notoriously evasive squirrel names Lars on the planet Mars? Here is the thing though, I'm not going to tell you anything about Lars at all. You'll have to simply present your argument, or realize that you don't have an argument suitable and pass on the challenge... challenge... challenge... challenge... I'm an honest person, totally not, like, all in love with Lars; just believe in him. No tricks here.

I will be more forthcoming about Lars on the planet mars: he did something in a box with Fox and in a house with a mouse...Lars is a dirty little squirrel indeed.

 

[George-ananda]

My point is that "atheism" is an evolving term, meaning different things to different people. The only absolute necessity is the lack of belief in God/gods. Anything beyond that should not be assumed. Whether it is "controversial" is of no concern to me. I think that, from the evidence I've seen, it seems to be an unreasonable assumption.

Do you realize 'most atheists are materialists' does entail that you can not assume it is true for a particular atheist??