Challenge to Creationists: Ichneumon Wasp

[Subduction Zone]

It's a person named Rick Oliver. He says that he became a Christian at the age of 40, and the Hartlandcamp website - Dr. Rick Oliver - Hartland Christian Camp - says that he became a Christian in 1987, so he is presumably about 70 years old. He seems to have covered his tracks fairly well; I haven't found anything about his career or his scientific publications before he became a creationist.

There were probably no "tracks" to cover. People can claim to be a scientist, but if they have not done any work in the sciences that claim rings hollow.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's a person named Rick Oliver. He says that he became a Christian at the age of 40, and the Hartlandcamp website - Dr. Rick Oliver - Hartland Christian Camp - says that he became a Christian in 1987, so he is presumably about 70 years old. He seems to have covered his tracks fairly well; I haven't found anything about his career or his scientific publications before he became a creationist.

check out http://confoundthewise.org/

 

[Audie]

I watched it long enough to get his name and heard him claim to be a school teacher, not a professor at a college or university and a few minutes more waiting for him to get into the science. He did not do so. So I skipped ahead, and skipped ahead, and skipped ahead ....

If there was any science presented at all it was buried in a long sermon. There is nothing to see there.

More and more every day
More a them scientists say
Creation-ism, that's the kind for me!

 

[Audie]

There were probably no "tracks" to cover. People can claim to be a scientist, but if they have not done any work in the sciences that claim rings hollow.

I dont know so much about that subzy. You know how
a grade school teacher can lead a little class project and
chirp to the kiddies about how "You are all scientists now!"

 

[InChrist]

First question: Who is this?

J. Richard Oliver, Ph.D.CEO and Founder, Confound The Wise MinistriesDr. Richard “Rick” Oliver is currently the CEO and founder of Confound the Wise Ministries based in Tonto Basin Arizona. Confound the Wise Ministries is a unique Creation based Ministry dedicated to spreading the unerring Word of God through science education. In June, 2008 Dr. Oliver stepped down from his full time position as superintendent of the Mount Hermon Outdoor Science School which he founded. Dr. Oliver served in this position for over 15 years at Mount Hermon Christian Conference Center located in the beautiful Santa Cruz Mountains in California.He designed and developed a science curriculum based on the California state science framework for middle school students (grades 5-8). The Creation centered experiential learning based curriculum not only allowed students to become more knowledgeable about their environment, but developed an appreciation, respect and responsibility for it as well.Dr. Oliver earned his undergraduate degree in science at the California State University in Fullerton California. He later was granted his M.S. in life science with a minor in geology and went on to earn a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology with an emphasis in herpetology from the University of California. Dr. Oliver has participated in numerous scientific research projects over the course of his academic career including working with the Veterans Administration Hospital on extensive research on rattlesnake venom, major research projects involving both biology and geology at the Grand Canyon in Arizona and at the volcano at Mount Saint Helens in Washington State as well as several Dinosaur research projects in Wyoming and Montana.Dr. Oliver became a Christian in 1987 and began lecturing on science regarding the origin of life from a Creationist point of view. As a gifted communicator affectionately known as “Ranger Rick” by both his colleagues and students his enthusiasm and knowledge of both biology and geology make him a popular speaker throughout the country. Dr. Oliver is an adjunct faculty member a several colleges, both secular and Christian and has been invited to speak at churches and schools both in the United States and overseas.Dr. Oliver’s professional organizations include:

• American Federation of Herpetoculturalists
• California Science Teachers Association
• California Academy of Sciences
• New York Academy of Science
• Board of Directors, U.C. Santa Cruz, Longs’ Marine Laboratory
• Military Officers Association

 

[InChrist]

Do you always let a youtube or a book speak for you?
Why?

Not always, but just as you have said you are not a scientist, neither am I. So when a scientist who fully understands the theory of evolution sees flaws, then changes their perspective to that of biblical creation, I consider the book or youtube of interest and their view as valid. BTW, not all secular evolutionary scientists who have accepted creation or intelligent design have started with a commitment to the Bible or had the same stance as Dr. Wise.

 

[InChrist]

That is not remotely realistic, and you are changing the
subject besides. There isnt even such a thing as a
"secular" or any other "theory of abiogenisis". Realistic?

Of course there is "secular" evolution and theories of the origin of life. Christians or creationist have no problem with the word or idea of evolution, which just means change. I know that the diversity of life changes over time. It is the secular view which says evolution has taken millions of years or that all the diversity of life started from molecule to plants, animals, and on to humans where the disagreement lies.

Lets limit it to a study of the fossil record, which you
certainly have not done.

.

I can't limit this to the discussion of the fossil record without starting from the origin of life in the first place. Without a correct understanding of the origin of life how can one simply go on to the fossil record?

You may not want to watch the videos, but then why should I continue discussion with you if you will not even consider what I see as valid views of those who understand the subject? There are scientists who are educated and rationally believe science supports the idea of a Creator.

 

[Audie]

Of course there is "secular" evolution and theories of the origin of life. Christians or creationist have no problem with the word or idea of evolution, which just means change. I know that the diversity of life changes over time. It is the secular view which says evolution has taken millions of years or that all the diversity of life started from molecule to plants, animals, and on to humans where the disagreement lies.


I can't limit this to the discussion of the fossil record without starting from the origin of life in the first place. Without a correct understanding of the origin of life how can one simply go on to the fossil record?

You may not want to watch the videos, but then why should I continue discussion with you if you will not even consider what I see as valid views of those who understand the subject? There are scientists who are educated and rationally believe science supports the idea of a Creator.

I can read scripture, go to creosites or watch youtube on
my own, why do I need you? You've nothing to offer except
links, you dont actually know a thing on the topic.
I cant talk to a youtube vid.

You are not about to actually try to -gasp- study, are you? A bit
nervy, you watch a video, and put it that I am not really willing
to match you!

All of what little you have actually said is creosite
boilerplate, you did not think of any of it, certainly did
not grow from actually understanding anything.

"Secular science" as if that meant anything.


AND-If any one of these fellows with their chests bedecked
with honours had fact one contrary to ToE, or deep time /
fossil record, well the Nobel committee would soon be
calling.

It is just a bunch of bs though and they impress, prey on,
only the ignorant.

I notice you steered far clear of "intellectusl
dishonesty."

Anyway never mind, thought maybe you had something to
say but no, its cut n paste creosite or youtube, zero of
intetest. Not to the boys in Sweden, not to me.

 

[InChrist]

I can read scripture, go to creosites or watch youtube on
my own, why do I need you? You've nothing to offer except
links, you dont actually know a thing on the topic.
I cant talk to a youtube vid.

You are not about to actually try to -gasp- study, are you? A bit
nervy, you watch a video, and put it that I am not really willing
to match you!

All of what little you have actually said is creosite
boilerplate, you did not think of any of it, certainly did
not grow from actually understanding anything.

"Secular science" as if that meant anything.


AND-If any one of these fellows with their chests bedecked
with honours had fact one contrary to ToE, or deep time /
fossil record, well the Nobel committee would soon be
calling.

It is just a bunch of bs though and they impress, prey on,
only the ignorant.

I notice you steered far clear of "intellectusl
dishonesty."

Anyway never mind, thought maybe you had something to
say but no, its cut n paste creosite or youtube, zero of
intetest. Not to the boys in Sweden, not to me.

I find some of your posts actually confusing. What do you specifically want to talk about? And what is this... the boys in Sweden?

BTW, I don't usually post videos without including some of my own personal thoughts and words, questions, etc.

 

[Subduction Zone]

J. Richard Oliver, Ph.D.CEO and Founder, Confound The Wise MinistriesDr. Richard “Rick” Oliver is currently the CEO and founder of Confound the Wise Ministries based in Tonto Basin Arizona. Confound the Wise Ministries is a unique Creation based Ministry dedicated to spreading the unerring Word of God through science education. In June, 2008 Dr. Oliver stepped down from his full time position as superintendent of the Mount Hermon Outdoor Science School which he founded. Dr. Oliver served in this position for over 15 years at Mount Hermon Christian Conference Center located in the beautiful Santa Cruz Mountains in California.He designed and developed a science curriculum based on the California state science framework for middle school students (grades 5-8). The Creation centered experiential learning based curriculum not only allowed students to become more knowledgeable about their environment, but developed an appreciation, respect and responsibility for it as well.Dr. Oliver earned his undergraduate degree in science at the California State University in Fullerton California. He later was granted his M.S. in life science with a minor in geology and went on to earn a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology with an emphasis in herpetology from the University of California. Dr. Oliver has participated in numerous scientific research projects over the course of his academic career including working with the Veterans Administration Hospital on extensive research on rattlesnake venom, major research projects involving both biology and geology at the Grand Canyon in Arizona and at the volcano at Mount Saint Helens in Washington State as well as several Dinosaur research projects in Wyoming and Montana.Dr. Oliver became a Christian in 1987 and began lecturing on science regarding the origin of life from a Creationist point of view. As a gifted communicator affectionately known as “Ranger Rick” by both his colleagues and students his enthusiasm and knowledge of both biology and geology make him a popular speaker throughout the country. Dr. Oliver is an adjunct faculty member a several colleges, both secular and Christian and has been invited to speak at churches and schools both in the United States and overseas.Dr. Oliver’s professional organizations include:

• American Federation of Herpetoculturalists
• California Science Teachers Association
• California Academy of Sciences
• New York Academy of Science
• Board of Directors, U.C. Santa Cruz, Longs’ Marine Laboratory
• Military Officers Association

So not a real scientist and dishonest to boot.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not always, but just as you have said you are not a scientist, neither am I. So when a scientist who fully understands the theory of evolution sees flaws, then changes their perspective to that of biblical creation, I consider the book or youtube of interest and their view as valid. BTW, not all secular evolutionary scientists who have accepted creation or intelligent design have started with a commitment to the Bible or had the same stance as Dr. Wise.

What makes you think that he understands it? He could not find any flaws in it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Of course there is "secular" evolution and theories of the origin of life. Christians or creationist have no problem with the word or idea of evolution, which just means change. I know that the diversity of life changes over time. It is the secular view which says evolution has taken millions of years or that all the diversity of life started from molecule to plants, animals, and on to humans where the disagreement lies.


I can't limit this to the discussion of the fossil record without starting from the origin of life in the first place. Without a correct understanding of the origin of life how can one simply go on to the fossil record?

You may not want to watch the videos, but then why should I continue discussion with you if you will not even consider what I see as valid views of those who understand the subject? There are scientists who are educated and rationally believe science supports the idea of a Creator.

Abiogenesis is a different topic. You are listening to lying sources if they say that the theory of evolution depends upon it.

Why do you listen to lairs and frauds?

 

[nPeace]

Wonderwoman would be more appropriate. But anyway ...

I'm not sure why you've posted all this. Could you provide further explanation as to why you've posted these links? Is it supposed to demonstrate that, "Could the poor wasp be affected by a world that no longers conforms to the laws of nature brcause the more intelligent creatures made a mess of it by rejecting their creator?" Why do you you think the world "no longer conforms to the laws of nature?" And are you saying that the "poor wasp" has to suffer because some human supposedly screwed things once upon a time?


Or am I supposed to be so awed by nature pictures that I'll just have to believe in the very specific God(s) you believe in and worship? Come on. Pictures of nature are evidence that nature exists. Not much more.

Wonderwoman would be more appropriate

Sorry.

It's okay Skeptic, You asked, I delivered.
There is no way I can convince you to see things different to how you do. That's not my job. An offer of a million bucks, I'd still say, "No way! Let Donald Trump do it... better yet Putin."

 

[InChrist]

So not a real scientist and dishonest to boot.

Yes, a real scientist who as an evolutionary biologist ...

Dr. Oliver earned his undergraduate degree in science at the California State University in Fullerton California. He later was granted his M.S. in life science with a minor in geology and went on to earn a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology with an emphasis in herpetology from the University of California. Dr. Oliver has participated in numerous scientific research projects over the course of his academic career including working with the Veterans Administration Hospital on extensive research on rattlesnake venom, major research projects involving both biology and geology at the Grand Canyon in Arizona and at the volcano at Mount Saint Helens in Washington State as well as several Dinosaur research projects in Wyoming and Montana.

...had no problem with evolution per se, but did see flaws in the secular theory of evolution.

 

[InChrist]

Abiogenesis is a different topic. You are listening to lying sources if they say that the theory of evolution depends upon it.

Why do you listen to lairs and frauds?

The theory of evolution and natural selection depends on the existence of life, doesn't it? Or are you telling me evolution can just skip life and take place in and of itself?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, a real scientist who as an evolutionary biologist ...

Dr. Oliver earned his undergraduate degree in science at the California State University in Fullerton California. He later was granted his M.S. in life science with a minor in geology and went on to earn a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology with an emphasis in herpetology from the University of California. Dr. Oliver has participated in numerous scientific research projects over the course of his academic career including working with the Veterans Administration Hospital on extensive research on rattlesnake venom, major research projects involving both biology and geology at the Grand Canyon in Arizona and at the volcano at Mount Saint Helens in Washington State as well as several Dinosaur research projects in Wyoming and Montana.

...had no problem with evolution per se, but did see flaws in the secular theory of evolution.

Where are his published works? I went to Google Scholar and came up with nothing. If he has done work for creationists that is not real science. Most creationist sources make their employees swear not to use the scientific method. That means that they really can't call their work "science".

 

[Subduction Zone]

The theory of evolution and natural selection depends on the existence of life, doesn't it? Or are you telling me evolution can just skip life and take place in and of itself?

Of course it does. So what? It appears that you are not thinking logically. If you want to move the goal posts all the way to abiogenesis you are in effect admitting that you are wrong about evolution. Are you sure that you want to do that? See if you can figure out what error you have made.

 

[InChrist]

Where are his published works? I went to Google Scholar and came up with nothing. If he has done work for creationists that is not real science. Most creationist sources make their employees swear not to use the scientific method. That means that they really can't call their work "science".

I don't know where his published works are. Does everyone who has a degree in science or who teaches publish papers? For years he was not a creationist/Christian, but an atheist secular scientist teacher. I really think it is misinformation or ignorance on your part to say that creationist organizations make their employees swear not to use the scientific method or that their work is not real science. I've never heard of such a thing and this sounds really bias and completely contrary to everything I read about their research.

 

[nPeace]

FYI: These links are homophobic garbage. Shame on you for posting such nonsense. Why are some people so obsessed with what kind of sex gay people are having? You know heterosexuals engage in the exact same stuff, right?

That "garbage" comes from The Family Research Institute (FRI), originally known as the Institute for the Scientific Investigation of Sexuality
I suggest, if you have a problem with the research, you can take it up with Paul Cameron.
Perhaps, then you would be able to provide your scientific findings, and you two can battle it out.

You don't have a phobia against people who don't support homosexuality do you? If so, Welcome to the world of phobias.
What should we call your phobia? Maybe antihomophobia.

Here are a few links that doesn't belong to Paul and his group.

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been rising among gay and bisexual men, with increases in syphilis being seen across the country. In 2014, gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men accounted for 83% of primary and secondary syphilis cases where sex of sex partner was known in the United States. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men often get other STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections. HPV (Human papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States, is also a concern for gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men. Some types of HPV can cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancers. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to get anal cancer than heterosexual men. Men who are HIV-positive are even more likely than those who do not have HIV to get anal cancer.

CDC report: Homosexual lifestyle extremely violent
After conducting an extensive study on homosexual behavior, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reports that those involved in such lifestyles experience a far greater amount of violence from one another than those in heterosexual relationships.

You didn't complain about bestiality. Do you have anything against that? I don't know what phobia that's called....but it's sicker than the above.

Bestiality is dangerous to society verified by FBI reports promoting violent crime, rape and murder. Also spreads diseases Men who had sex with animals in their lifetime were twice as likely to develop cancer of the penis as others. "A team of urologists from centers around Brazil co-authored the paper, which looked at risk factors for penile cancer in men who had visited 16 urology and oncology centers in 12 Brazilian cities." Men who had sex with animals also reported a higher incidence of sexually transmitted diseases." (Animals often carry STDs communicable to humans).

Talk about sick. Read about Luka Magnotta.
I didn't mention pedophilia - another sick perversion.
What a sick world.
This is what I mean by contrary to the laws of nature. Garbage isn't even that bad.

 

[InChrist]

Of course it does. So what? It appears that you are not thinking logically. If you want to move the goal posts all the way to abiogenesis you are in effect admitting that you are wrong about evolution. Are you sure that you want to do that? See if you can figure out what error you have made.

Why don't you just tell me my error. I don't see it because I don't see how one can have an elaborate theory on the progression of life while ignoring the origin of life or simply having some vague assumptions on how life began.