Challenges to Creationism

[FearGod]

Why the world don't help them than complaining it's God fault ?

 

[Tumah]

So you believe young children deserve diseases and sufferings. Okay, now that we know how your moral compass is set we won't be surprised by any further statements you make. Thanks for the heads-up.

Glad that's cleared up then.

 

[Ouroboros]

I think as you say, whether G-d is good or what constitutes G-d's goodness (or the under-the-table jabs) are beyond the scope of this thread.

Agree.

Your question regarding animals though, doesn't bother me very much because humans can be reincarnated as animals as well.

Oh. You believe in reincarnation? Interesting. I didn't know there were jewish traditions or beliefs like that. Also something for another discussion.

The example is in the answer:
A soul may only need a certain level of elevation before achieving its final rectification. So it may be reincarnated in a banana (plant level) and then be elevated to the animal level through the monkey and may complete its rectification at that stage. Alternatively, the banana may be eaten by a goat which is then eaten by a human granting the soul a higher level of rectification.
For you it is a genetic defect. I see it as an intended occurrence in order to achieve its purpose.

Cool. Even though I don't believe in reincarnation, you gave me an answer that's intriguing.

Which is something that doesn't require us to see IR and UV. I can't point to each specific thing and give an exact reason. I'm not nearly smart enough or learned enough for that. What I can do is present the principles that answer the questions in general.

Also, if you have difficulty moderating yourself to the same level of respect that I'm showing you, I don't think I'll be able to respond again. I'm sure you're capable of presenting your argument without snide remarks.

The snideness was directed to such a God, not you personally. If God needs admiration, then God is a less of a person to me. It wasn't about you, but about a God that has to torture people to be worshipped. My kids love and respect me, and I've gained that respect without violence and without ever laying my hand on them or hurting them. If I can do it, but God can't, then God isn't worthy of my respect. And it has nothing to do with you personally. You just have to know that I would despise such a God.

The thing is, if God can't even be or act to the level of a good and intelligent person, then God isn't God at all. He's less than a human. This is not being snide to you, but a statement of faith. My belief and faith is that God can't be that low.

 

[Skwim]

Why the world don't help them than complaining it's God fault ?

Care to rephrase?

 

[Tumah]

Agree.


Oh. You believe in reincarnation? Interesting. I didn't know there were jewish traditions or beliefs like that. Also something for another discussion.

Cool. Even though I don't believe in reincarnation, you gave me an answer that's intriguing.

Quite a bit of literature in Judaism on of reincarnation.

The snideness was directed to such a God, not you personally. If God needs admiration, then God is a less of a person to me. It wasn't about you, but about a God that has to torture people to be worshipped. My kids love and respect me, and I've gained that respect without violence and without ever laying my hand on them or hurting them. If I can do it, but God can't, then God isn't worthy of my respect. And it has nothing to do with you personally. You just have to know that I would despise such a God.

That may be. But I am presenting myself as a representative of the G-d that you are disrespecting. It seems like disrespecting the Chinese president to the face of the Chinese diplomat -whatever your true feelings, would be a diplomatic faux pas.

 

[Skwim]

Glad that's cleared up then.

Oh, just one more question. What does it take to be deserving of diseases and suffering?

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Not at all. Suffering is always meant to be a temporary measure. The people who cure individuals/find cures are the mediums through which G-d ends that specific suffering.

So your suggesting Edward Jenner, the father of immunology, was given the idea of incoculaton by God?

That is absolute nonsense.

I'm basing my assumptions off of various Jewish texts, yes.

Which ones specifically.

 

[Tumah]

So your suggesting Edward Jenner, tr father

I'm not catching your reference or intent.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I'm not catching your reference or intent.

Sorry, I'm on a phone. See edited version!

 

[Tumah]

Oh, just one more question. What does it take to be deserving diseases and suffering?

No problem. When you turn 15, come back and read all the posts here and by then hopefully you'll be able to demonstrate that you can continue the debate in a mature fashion. And when you do, I'll be happy to answer.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Why the world don't help them than complaining it's God fault ?

I don't want to speak for the origin behind this particular idea, but it starts with the assumption that god did it, and we can't stop it at all.

And despite God, we, the race of humanity, are helping them.

 

[Tumah]

So your suggesting Edward Jenner, the father of immunology, was given the idea of incoculaton by God?

That is absolute nonsense.

I would describe it more like he put himself into a position where he would be the ideal candidate for G-d to present inoculation to the world. But the exact wording is a discussion on the extent and manifestation of free-will vs G-d's Providence. So basically yes.

Which ones specifically.

Its hard to say specifically because these are ideas and principles that span categories in Jewish literature. I could name you a few if you'd like but I'm not sure how helpful it would be as they are all in Hebrew.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

There seems to be some gray area in definitions but I'd say no, I believe in a loving God, who takes an interest in his creation, in humanity, communicates with us- that ultimately the universe requires purpose to exist, and that love is the ultimate purpose.

I think I'd prefer that god as well. But I'd have trouble believing they the world is a reliable place if Gid can make changes. Our assumptions would be just that, and scientific inquiry would be pointless if it didn't remain consistent.

So would you say that the physical aspects of the universe are completely determined, and God's role is only to communicate his love? Does he intervene?

 

[Kirran]

I think it's worth clarifying that Tumah doesn't, as I understand it, mean that children with malaria are necessarily being punished for something, but that their suffering is ultimately helpful to them in their progression as an everlasting soul.

 

[Ouroboros]

Quite a bit of literature in Judaism on of reincarnation.
That may be. But I am presenting myself as a representative of the G-d that you are disrespecting. It seems like disrespecting the Chinese president to the face of the Chinese diplomat -whatever your true feelings, would be a diplomatic faux pas.

Ok. Sure. Sorry that my opinion about your God offended you that much. I'll try not to do that again.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I would describe it more like he put himself into a position where he would be the ideal candidate for G-d to present inoculation to the world. But the exact wording is a discussion on the extent and manifestation of free-will vs G-d's Providence. So basically yes.



Its hard to say specifically because these are ideas and principles that span categories in Jewish literature. I could name you a few if you'd like but I'm not sure how helpful it would be as they are all in Hebrew.

Name them all. Otherwise, you're just making assumptions about God's will.

Job 38: v 1-2 KJV

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I think I'd prefer that god as well. But I'd have trouble believing they the world is a reliable place if Gid can make changes. Our assumptions would be just that, and scientific inquiry would be pointless if it didn't remain consistent.

So would you say that the physical aspects of the universe are completely determined, and God's role is only to communicate his love? Does he intervene?

Scientific enquiry has revealed those changes though, once 'immutable laws' thought to leave no room for God's influence were resolved to be mere illusions floating on far deeper, inherently unpredictable forces. Mechanisms which altered atomic structures to make ingredients for life.

I believe it is all determined, but again his intervention may also be determined,- it gets to very tricky questions of free will- can it truly exist- or is that too an illusion?

I think Forest Gump answered the question of our lives being fate v floating on a breeze pretty well- 'maybe it's both!'

 

[Ouroboros]

I think it's worth clarifying that Tumah doesn't, as I understand it, mean that children with malaria are necessarily being punished for something, but that their suffering is ultimately helpful to them in their progression as an everlasting soul.

Am I wrong, but does it sound a bit Buddhist?

 

[Kirran]

As OP, I'd like a little more civility towards the creationists. Not that it isn't mostly civil. But it could be a little better.

 

[Kirran]

Scientific enquiry has revealed those changes though, once 'immutable laws' thought to leave no room for God's influence were resolved to be mere illusions floating on far deeper, inherently unpredictable forces. Mechanisms which altered atomic structures to make ingredients for life.

I believe it is all determined, but again his intervention may also be determined,- it gets to very tricky questions of free will- can it truly exist- or is that too an illusion?

I think Forest Gump answered the question of our lives being fate v floating on a breeze pretty well- 'maybe it's both!'

I think the dichotomy is artificial tbh.