Charlie Hebdo Muslim hypocrisy still not cured

[ChristineM]

It is perfectly valid to say one historical document verifies another historical document.
However Biblical prophecy can also be verified from sources outside the Bible.

Only evidenced documents.


Example of biblical prophecy that are verified outside the bible

For example?

I don't know about you but i think killing men and taking virgin women ad plunder is pretty insulting to humanity

That is an example of someone using the Bible in such a way as to insult my intelligence and the Bible itself and maybe your own intelligence.

No that is away of taking the teachings of the bible and showing that it's not all a petty story, in fact around 85% of it is really quite horrendous.

 

[oldbadger]

You guessed wrong.
Half my family is muslim.
And I assure you that that part of the family aren't the only muslims I personally know. And work with. And play music with. And give soccer training with.

Then I am most surprised that you don't have more respect for them, their feelings and their beliefs.

 

[oldbadger]

That's true and it is very nice of you and your wife to be kind to people who knock on your door.
I sometimes wonder if atheist belittling of religions is seen as OK and if pushing their beliefs is not seen as proselytizing.

I don't think it is about atheists belittle religions, Brian.
It is one Creed against another, one religion against others, agnostics against particular religions, atheists against ...... Etc.

I once attended a Christian church's soup and chat venue and mentioned another church and a senior priest started shouting 'They are not Christians!' at me.

It's all about people enjoying the upsets of those who they hate while turning the whole thing the other way round if somehow their values got made fun of.
In other words the Hebdoe mob have their own kind of hypocrisy imo.

 

[oldbadger]

So is that movie banned now?
I clearly remember it being aired after 2010 though. I live in Belgium, but I watched it on BBC.

In life of Brian, Jesus was not targeted, but the silly mobs etc.

I know it got banned in the States but it wasn't here. Images of Jesus are not banned by most churches but Baha'i and Islam ban images of their prophets. You could not post pics of either on RF I think.

 

[ppp]

Yeah..... but you don't believe that.

I don't believe what? I don't believe that what they believe is true. But I do believe that they believe it.

It's not a problem unless such beliefs change people's behaviour towards you, and most Christians and Muslims are reasonable, or at least the ones I know in England are.

So, this morning. An hour ago, I was leaving the eye doctor...
I left at the same time as an old man. We exchanged polite masked pleasantries as I held the door for him. Just trivial social grease. He then pulled a card from his pocket and handed it to me. It was all ornate...red and orange flames, a black thick font...reading "The wages of sin is death." I told him, "I don't do this" and turned towards my car. He shouted, "Are you insane! You are risking your eternal soul!" He then began his testimony about how he became Christian after the Korean War.

This is not the first, or the hundred and first time that this has happened to me in some variation. One of the most common questions that a person can get asked by a complete stranger here in the Southern United States is "What Church do you go to?" Another favorite is, "Have you been saved?"

 

[oldbadger]

I don't believe what? I don't believe that what they believe is true. But I do believe that they believe it.

OK.

So, this morning. An hour ago, I was leaving the eye doctor...
I left at the same time as an old man. We exchanged polite masked pleasantries as I held the door for him. Just trivial social grease. He then pulled a card from his pocket and handed it to me. It was all ornate...red and orange flames, a black thick font...reading "The wages of sin is death."

That's nice. It probably had his contact details on it.....

I told him, "I don't do this" and turned towards my car. He shouted, "Are you insane! You are risking your eternal soul!" He then began his testimony about how he became Christian after the Korean War.

Ahhhh! You had to slam the door on the old boy! And then you stopped and listened to him, so you did do it after all.
You listened to his testimony for a bit.

This is not the first, or the hundred and first time that this has happened to me in some variation.

How terrible! Being given a card, leading to all that trauma.
I can't imagine what you went through during that meeting.

One of the most common questions that a person can get asked by a complete stranger here in the Southern United States is "What Church do you go to?" Another favorite is, "Have you been saved?"

I'm aware of the high % of Christians in Southern States, and the existence of Christian extremism.
Just try coping with these dreadful questions.

 

[ppp]

I'm aware of the high % of Christians in Southern States, and the existence of Christian extremism.

Obviously, you are not.

 

[oldbadger]

Obviously, you are not.

I might know more about Christian extremism than you.
I've read about it for years.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is perfectly valid to say one historical document verifies another historical document.

It is also perfectly valid to say that that doesn't really matter if they aren't independent accounts.
And the various books of the bible most definatly aren't independent accounts.

However Biblical prophecy can also be verified from sources outside the Bible.

With loads of imagination and assumptions, maybe.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's true and it is very nice of you and your wife to be kind to people who knock on your door.
I sometimes wonder if atheist belittling of religions is seen as OK and if pushing their beliefs is not seen as proselytizing.

What "beliefs" are atheists "pushing"?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Then I am most surprised that you don't have more respect for them, their feelings and their beliefs.

Ow boy..... There's so much to reply to that blind accusing statement....

1. First of all, you don't know ANYTHING about me OR them.

2. I respect, and love, them as people. That doesn't mean that I have to respect everything they believe or their opinions about certain things.

3. I respect their right for having their beliefs. That doesn't mean that I have to respect, or agree with, their beliefs.

4. They aren't petty, shortsighted people. They understand that the cartoons are making fun of islamist terrorists. Not of Islam as a whole. And even if it does, they understand the difference between humour and political propaganda.

5. They understand that they live in a secular country where freedom of and from religion and freedom of speech and artistic freedom are incredibly important. They understand also that it is exactly those freedoms that allows them to follow the religion of their choosing and which allows them to have Mosques that are subsidized with public tax money from all secular citizens - including non-muslims. ie: they understand that you don't bite the hand that feeds you.



I'm almost inclined to say: in short, they are adults and not children.

We have more mutual respect then any of you whiners about silly cartoons could ever dream off.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In life of Brian, Jesus was not targeted, but the silly mobs etc.

I think it is extremely obvious that the entire movie is a mega-parody of the birth of christianity.

Also, eventhough I haven't heared about the so-called "equality act" in the UK before you mentioned it, considering the naming.... Satire mocks pretty much everything. Including self-mockery.

So a true "equality act" worthy of the name, should be the exact opposite of what you are saying. It implies equal treatment. Meaning it should be fair game to get laughed at.

If it really means "you can make fun of your fellow native UK citizens but not immigrants", then it should be called the "inequality act".

 

[Brian2]

Only evidenced documents.
Example of biblical prophecy that are verified outside the bible

Here is one example. A prophecy that was not fulfilled straight away and could no be fulfilled in it's totality until really the end of the world, but it's fulfilment stands today as evidence.

A Prophecy About Babylon Confirms the Accuracy of the Bible
Here is another one that is often looked at and and was not fulfilled straight away but over many centuries.
The Destruction of Tyre (Fulfilled Prophecy) - Engage 360 Ministries

I don't know about you but i think killing men and taking virgin women ad plunder is pretty insulting to humanity

There would be good reason for doing this at this stage in the history of Israel (when the Hebrews were about to invade Canaan) even if the Hebrew God and what He wanted was not part of the equation. Have you considered any possible reasons for the decision? If not then you will find some here.
Warfare is an ugly thing but there can be good reasons for actions taken and in this instance it would not be a case of using the virgins as sex slaves. Here is a site which gives some reasons if you are interested.
Why did Moses order female virgins to be kept alive but all others killed in Numbers 31:17-18?

No that is away of taking the teachings of the bible and showing that it's not all a petty story, in fact around 85% of it is really quite horrendous.

Any one who has read the Bible knows that it shows not only horrendous deeds of humans towards other humans but also of what seem to be horrendous deeds of God against humans. It shows human depravity and shows the actions of our creator who is also according to the overall story, in the process of setting up His nation from whom would come the one who would be the salvation of humanity. This is the Bible God's way of dealing with the evil in the world instead of just wiping all humanity off the face of the earth.

 

[Brian2]

It is also perfectly valid to say that that doesn't really matter if they aren't independent accounts.
And the various books of the bible most definatly aren't independent accounts.

Not "most definitely" but I know where you are coming from.

With loads of imagination and assumptions, maybe.

I have just finished a post (post 193) with a couple of examples of prophecies which don't really require imagination and assumptions to see they came true.
Of course there are many more. Many prophecies in the OT about the Messiah were fulfilled without too much imagination and assumptions, and most historians agree on the fulfilment. (there are truly radical sceptical historians who go so far as to deny the historicity of Jesus as a person however and so they agree to nothing).
There are OT prophecies about events after the time of Jesus also which have been and are being fulfilled.

 

[Brian2]

What "beliefs" are atheists "pushing"?

That science points to there being no need for a God.
That the Bible is not history.
etc

 

[ppp]

That science points to there being no need for a God.

Science does not say anything about God. The lack of a need of God for explanations comes from the fact that no requirement for any god has been established. And that God does not constitute an explanation.

That the Bible is not history.

Some of the Bible contains history, in the same way that some of the Greek myths contain history. Much of both is not. The supernatural elements of the Bible are no more history than the supernatural elements of the Iliad.

 

[ChristineM]

Here is one example. A prophecy that was not fulfilled straight away and could no be fulfilled in it's totality until really the end of the world, but it's fulfilment stands today as evidence.

So you say a prophecy that has not been fulfilled is evidence that prophecies are fulfilled.. got ya

There would be good reason for doing this at this stage in the history of Israel

We are done...

 

[oldbadger]

Ow boy..... There's so much to reply to that blind accusing statement....

1. First of all, you don't know ANYTHING about me OR them.

2. I respect, and love, them as people. That doesn't mean that I have to respect everything they believe or their opinions about certain things.

3. I respect their right for having their beliefs. That doesn't mean that I have to respect, or agree with, their beliefs.

4. They aren't petty, shortsighted people. They understand that the cartoons are making fun of islamist terrorists. Not of Islam as a whole. And even if it does, they understand the difference between humour and political propaganda.

5. They understand that they live in a secular country where freedom of and from religion and freedom of speech and artistic freedom are incredibly important. They understand also that it is exactly those freedoms that allows them to follow the religion of their choosing and which allows them to have Mosques that are subsidized with public tax money from all secular citizens - including non-muslims. ie: they understand that you don't bite the hand that feeds you.



I'm almost inclined to say: in short, they are adults and not children.

We have more mutual respect then any of you whiners about silly cartoons could ever dream off.

Oooh! ...... touched a wee nerve, did I?
So you think that freedom includes publishing mostly anything regardless of how many or how few folks it might upset,?

Most Muslims would not like any pics of their prophet pbuh being published, let alone cartoon images.

Oh! And from humour you ran on to include propaganda in your post. Public tax money? Lol.

 

[Brian2]

Science does not say anything about God. The lack of a need of God for explanations comes from the fact that no requirement for any god has been established. And that God does not constitute an explanation.

We all die and the story a God gives as to why and what is going on in the world and what will happen in the future does supply a need for a God and an explanation. Otherwise all we have is guesswork.
It seems to be a good thing to seek answers to the big questions in life and only a God can give the answers.

Some of the Bible contains history, in the same way that some of the Greek myths contain history. Much of both is not. The supernatural elements of the Bible are no more history than the supernatural elements of the Iliad.

I think I mentioned Biblical prophecy as showing that the supernatural elements in the Bible could well be true.

 

[ppp]

We all die and the story a God gives as to why and what is going on in the world and what will happen in the future does supply a need for a God and an explanation.

It's not an explanation. It's just a story that people have made up, and continue to make up. It is just guesswork.

I think I mentioned Biblical prophecy as showing that the supernatural elements in the Bible could well be true.

No, it doesn't. Biblical prophecy is not even prophecy.