Charlottesville: It's about the 1st Amendment

[Skwim]

Quite an intellectual response here. When you have utterly nothing to say, you have something to say

I just wanted to even the playing field. What took you many, many words to say only took me six to describe.

.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Guys..

I hear lots of hand-wringing and finger pointing. Our president is ham-handed and horrible. Bad things happened. The alt-right is a problem.

But the left and the media are the bigger threat!!!!!!

The left and the media are HUGE, and they are ignoring the 1st amendment. Long after this weekend is forgotten, the 1st amendment is what will keep us safe. Keep the 1st amendment front and center, and notice how infrequently it comes up as Charlottesville is discussed.

How is the left a bigger threat? The left didn't get in a car and run over a ton of people killing one. The left didn't tell trump there are good people in the Nazi, White Supremacist rally. You're doing exactly what Trump did, you focus on both sides when one sides fervor killed an innocent person.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Can you provide evidence that the counter-protesters were the first to attack? All evidence seems to point to white supremacists initiating the violence by throwing bottles. After that, the counter-protesters have every right to fight back.

There I none. White supremacists drew the line in the sand when they chanted "The Jews will not replace us" on a university campus with tiki torches, not to mention "blood and soil."

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Hey! we have grounds for a debate! I'm not sure if I think trump or the "left pole" is a bigger threat, but I'd say they're both far bigger threats than the alt-right.

Like what?

 

[icehorse]

Like what?

Like what, what? (seriously)

 

[icehorse]

There I none. White supremacists drew the line in the sand when they chanted "The Jews will not replace us" on a university campus with tiki torches, not to mention "blood and soil."

I already listed some examples.

 

[The magical volleyball]

Guys..

I hear lots of hand-wringing and finger pointing. Our president is ham-handed and horrible. Bad things happened. The alt-right is a problem.

But the left and the media are the bigger threat!!!!!!

The left and the media are HUGE, and they are ignoring the 1st amendment. Long after this weekend is forgotten, the 1st amendment is what will keep us safe. Keep the 1st amendment front and center, and notice how infrequently it comes up as Charlottesville is discussed.

Perhaps you should read this article and understand why these groups and demonstrations are so bad.

What the data shows on domestic terrorism perpetrators

 

[Milton Platt]

Guys..

I hear lots of hand-wringing and finger pointing. Our president is ham-handed and horrible. Bad things happened. The alt-right is a problem.

But the left and the media are the bigger threat!!!!!!

The left and the media are HUGE, and they are ignoring the 1st amendment. Long after this weekend is forgotten, the 1st amendment is what will keep us safe. Keep the 1st amendment front and center, and notice how infrequently it comes up as Charlottesville is discussed.

You do realize the first amendment protects us from the government from impinging on that right, don't you?????? It does not protect you with regards to other citizens.

 

[leibowde84]

There I none. White supremacists drew the line in the sand when they chanted "The Jews will not replace us" on a university campus with tiki torches, not to mention "blood and soil."

Good point. If that is not inciting violence, I don't know what is.

 

[Falvlun]

I'm gonna put this up here because it seems you are claiming rights that don't exist, or else want the government to take actions against the rights that specifically do:

First Ammendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Agreed it's tricky. Another point though is that freedom of speech includes freedom to listen. If counter-protestors shout over a speech I want to hear, then aren't they impinging on my constitutional rights?

Where in the Constitution does it say you have a right to hear things? Are you seriously claiming that the government should have stifled the speech of other people so that it was quiet enough for you to hear?

I guess you haven't read the thread, it is getting long...

The asshats got a permit to speak. The counter-protestors shut down the asshats before they could finish their asshat protest. I have heard very little coming from the MSM concerning the fact that the counter-protestors and the cops effectively stifled the speech of the asshats.

So, the government did exactly what it was required to do and more:

It did NOT abridge the freedom of speech or the right of people to peaceably assemble. In fact, it granted a permit for it. I don't think the first Ammendment even states that everyone has the right to a venue for their speech.

actually, I think this shows how strong the first Ammendment is that the government allowed people with such views to protest.

The First Ammendment does NOT protect your speech from the speech of other citizens. It does not say that your speech must be heard. It does not say the government or the citizenry owes you a platform. It does not say you have a right to government protection during your speech.

Where are you getting all these rights?

Now let's look more closely at your desires. You think the government ought to have silenced the counter-protestors. This is directly oppositional to the first Ammendment.

You also think that people should silence themselves, that they should refrain from speaking their own speech. This is oppositional to your own contention that we shouldn't be silencing any views.

Your argument is therefore not based in the Constitution and it's hypocritical.

 

[icehorse]

How is the left a bigger threat? The left didn't get in a car and run over a ton of people killing one. The left didn't tell trump there are good people in the Nazi, White Supremacist rally. You're doing exactly what Trump did, you focus on both sides when one sides fervor killed an innocent person.

From how many different sources did you watch footage? There was plenty of fervor to go around.

 

[icehorse]

Perhaps you should read this article and understand why these groups and demonstrations are so bad.

What the data shows on domestic terrorism perpetrators

Doh! I'm not in ANY way advocating for either side of this mess. My ONLY point is that free speech got trampled in all the confusion.

 

[icehorse]

You do realize the first amendment protects us from the government from impinging on that right, don't you?????? It does not protect you with regards to other citizens.

We have all agreed to pay the government in part to maintain law and order. The asshats had a permit, and between the cops and the counter-protestors, the asshat's freedom of speech was stifled.

 

[icehorse]

Good point. If that is not inciting violence, I don't know what is.

The test is "imminent violence" and I think the asshats know that they stop just short of that.

 

[icehorse]

I'm gonna put this up here because it seems you are claiming rights that don't exist, or else want the government to take actions against the rights that specifically do:

First Ammendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Where in the Constitution does it say you have a right to hear things? Are you seriously claiming that the government should have stifled the speech of other people so that it was quiet enough for you to hear?


So, the government did exactly what it was required to do and more:

It did NOT abridge the freedom of speech or the right of people to peaceably assemble. In fact, it granted a permit for it. I don't think the first Ammendment even states that everyone has the right to a venue for their speech.

actually, I think this shows how strong the first Ammendment is that the government allowed people with such views to protest.

The First Ammendment does NOT protect your speech from the speech of other citizens. It does not say that your speech must be heard. It does not say the government or the citizenry owes you a platform. It does not say you have a right to government protection during your speech.

Where are you getting all these rights?

Now let's look more closely at your desires. You think the government ought to have silenced the counter-protestors. This is directly oppositional to the first Ammendment.

You also think that people should silence themselves, that they should refrain from speaking their own speech. This is oppositional to your own contention that we shouldn't be silencing any views.

Your argument is therefore not based in the Constitution and it's hypocritical.

You're not addressing my arguments.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Like what, what? (seriously)

SMH if you're going to be like that what is the need to go further in discussion? I responded to a comment you

From how many different sources did you watch footage? There was plenty of fervor to go around.

I watched several footages but I still did not see how the left is a bigger threat. White S White supremacy groups have had a history of this type of behavior. They (KKK, Alt-Right, etc) are more of a direct danger to me than anyone else.

 

[icehorse]

I watched several footages but I still did not see how the left is a bigger threat. White S White supremacy groups have had a history of this type of behavior. They (KKK, Alt-Right, etc) are more of a direct danger to me than anyone else.

I'm asking you to zoom out a bit. As these threads go, you jumped into the conversation at a point when it had evolved from the OP. The initial claim was very specific to how free speech had been trampled during the one event in question. When I say I see the left as a bigger threat, that's in a different context, the broader context. As I said earlier in this thread, I see the (extreme), left as a bigger threat - in the broad context - because it's numbers are HUGE, HUGE, HUGE compared to the alt-right.

 

[icehorse]

To everyone:

I want you to imagine a different scenario: imagine you bought tickets to a concert in the park. While you're at the concert, a bunch of people who don't like that kind of music show up just outside the concert area and start protesting with their bullhorns, drowning out the music. Are those bullhorn wielders okay with you? Do you feel you've had your rights trampled on? Would you expect the police to come and restore order? Can you see how freedom of speech includes the right to hear what you want to hear?

 

[Mister Silver]

To everyone:

I want you to imagine a different scenario: imagine you bought tickets to a concert in the park. While you're at the concert, a bunch of people who don't like that kind of music show up just outside the concert area and start protesting with their bullhorns, drowning out the music. Are those bullhorn wielders okay with you? Do you feel you've had your rights trampled on? Would you expect the police to come and restore order? Can you see how freedom of speech includes the right to hear what you want to hear?

Does the music at the concert promote white supremacy? If so, I would certainly be there with that bullhorn drowning out that garbage.

Is the one with the bullhorn the white supremacist? If so, I would certainly be upset with him spewing his hate.

 

[Valjean]

I think we may have different ideas about "the left, Icehorse. HUGE, HUGE, HUGE? I see the left as a tiny voice in the wilderness. Are you including moderate, middle-of-the-road types as left?