Charlottesville: Who reported on it correctly?

[icehorse]

Yes to the first (but with the caveat that we stop using this 'alt-right' euphemism and call them what they are: neo-Nazis) and a definite 'no we must not' to the second. Far-right ideology consists of calling for groups of 'undesirables' (LGBTs, ethnic minorities, Jews, Muslims etc) to be killed. Incitement to murder is not, as far as I'm aware, considered protected speech.

I'm happy to know better labels. I used "alt-right" not to obfuscate, but because I understand it to be the umbrella term that collects nazis and supremacists and such under one banner.

As for incitement - to me that's a really tricky definition. As I understand it, the law attempts to look for "imminent violence" when considering questions of free speech. My gut is that - reprehensible as it is - what the alt-right did last weekend was protected speech.

 

[Stevicus]

How about we start calling them neo-Nazis or fascists instead of sad little euphemisms like 'the alt-right'?

Yeah, I can go along with that. It's easy to say all these things and call anyone anything. I'm not sure if it accomplishes anything, but it's easy to do.

 

[metis]

In regards to the use of the term "alt-right":
The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely defined group of people with far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of white nationalism, principally in the United States, but also to a lesser degree in Canada and Europe. Paul Gottfried is the first person to use the term "alternative right", when referring specifically to developments within American right-wing politics, in 2008. The term has since gained wide currency with the rise of the so-called "alt-right". White supremacist Richard Spencer coined the term in 2010 in reference to a movement centered on white nationalism, and has been accused by some media publications of doing so to excuse overt racism, white supremacism, and neo-Nazism. The term drew considerable media attention and controversy during and after the 2016 US presidential election... -- Alt-right - Wikipedia

 

[idav]

Yes we know Trump did a bad job, no argument. But which news agency got it right?

My summary is:

- We should deplore the alt-right.
- We must defend their right to speech.
- Extremists on both the left and the right initiated violence.
- While I normally support the cops, they screwed up this time.

I have watched many reports of this incident, I haven't seen any make these clear points. The Rebel seemed closest to me, and they are advocacy journalists.

Gee Trump isn't happy with just a world war we need a civil war too?

 

[UpperLimits]

How about we start calling them neo-Nazis or fascists instead of sad little euphemisms like 'the alt-right'?

Yes, I agree. It seems that in the past year (And especially so since Trump's election.) that the understanding of the term "alt-right" has significantly shifted from it's traditional understanding of a 'far right conservative' to basically anything the left finds objectionable. The lumping of the neo-Nazis and facists, and other white supremacists into the alt-right heading (mainly by left leaning media) has only served to further confuse the issue and contributed to a distorted understanding of the term.

 

[UpperLimits]

I do not know all the facts, but given what I've seen from the news and from an HBO special... The alt-right had permits and confirmed with state and city officials to have a public display. IMO, they did what was necessary to voice their opinions even if they despicable. I will give them that for trying to be civil with their right of speech.

Yep. Torches in hand and not a thing got torched. That's a far cry from the last Antifa news reel I watched. Those guys seem to think they have license to destroy property.

Antifa also has a right to protest.

They certainly do. But common sense would tell you to do it on another day, or in another location with considerable distance between the two. Allowing those two groups to come together was an obvious recipe for disaster. Yet, it seems the Antifa group planned it that way. Not the first time they've clashed with other groups, ya know. Just the first time somebody got killed. They've just been lucky up until now.

 

[suncowiam]

Yep. Torches in hand and not a thing got torched. That's a far cry from the last Antifa news reel I watched. Those guys seem to think they have license to destroy property.

They certainly do. But common sense would tell you to do it on another day, or in another location with considerable distance between the two. Allowing those two groups to come together was an obvious recipe for disaster. Yet, it seems the Antifa group planned it that way. Not the first time they've clashed with other groups, ya know. Just the first time somebody got killed. They've just been lucky up until now.

Common sense?

The whole point of protesting is to disrupt a routine to bring attention to a cause.

But there still is need for civility.

 

[Revoltingest]

Bad info abounds.
In the news today....

Virginia State Police Say They Didn't Find Caches of Weapons in Charlottesville
Contradicting statements by Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe, the Virginia State Police say they did not find caches of weapons stashed around Charlottesville in advance of last Saturday's deadly white nationalist rally.

In an interview Monday on the Pod Save the People podcast, hosted by Black Lives Matter activist DeRay Mckesson, McAuliffe claimed the white nationalists who streamed into Charlottesville that weekend hid weapons throughout the town.

"They had battering rams and we had picked up different weapons that they had stashed around the city," McAuliffe told Mckesson.

McAuliffe's comments were picked up by other news outlets and spread through social media. But Corinne Geller, a spokesperson for the Virginia State Police, says that no such stashes were found.

"The governor was referring to the briefing provided him in advance of Saturday's rally and the extra security measures being taken by local and state police," Geller tells Reason. "As a safety precaution in advance of August 12, such searches were conducted in and around Emancipation and McIntire Parks. No weapons were located as a result of those searches."

The Virginia State Police also disputed McAuliffe's claims that Virginia State Police were underequipped to deal with the heavily armed militia members at Saturday's rally.

 

[metis]

Yep. Torches in hand and not a thing got torched.

Ever see any of the NAZI pictures from their marches back in the 1930's? Do you know anything about "blood and soil" and how the NAZI's used it, which is what was chanted by these racists in Charlottesville? Does your denomination advocate racism and anti-Semitism? Do you?

"To cooperate with evil is evil"-- Gandhi.

 

[UpperLimits]

Ever see any of the NAZI pictures from their marches back in the 1930's? Do you know anything about "blood and soil" and how the NAZI's used it, which is what was chanted by these racists in Charlottesville?

Yep. And the similarities to the left are striking.





BTW, I don't give those white supremacist morons a "pass" either.... Just thought I'd bring that up since you obviously didn't bother to read my last post.

Does your denomination advocate racism and anti-Semitism?

Nope.

Do you?

Nope.

 

[UpperLimits]

Common sense?

The whole point of protesting is to disrupt a routine to bring attention to a cause.

But there still is need for civility.

Of course it's to bring attention to a cause. But any fool knows that when you mix fire and gasoline, you're going to have a reaction.

Saw an interesting meme on FaceBook
.

The problem is; Antifa is being led by fools. More in the news.... Can you say, "OOOPS!!" ?

Antifa Defaces Atlanta Peace Statue After Mistaking It For A Confederate Monument

 

[metis]

Yep. And the similarities to the left are striking.

The NAZI's, even though they used "Socialist" in their name, were a right-wing fascist group that simply used "Socialist" as a cover for what they were going to do and did do. Fascism is right-wing, not left wing. Socialism is based on attempts to encourage more economic equality and fairness, which is certainly not what the NAZI's did.

BTW, I don't give those white supremacist morons a "pass" either.... Just thought I'd bring that up since you obviously didn't bother to read my last post.

I did read your post.

 

[Notanumber]

If ANTIFA are not being paid, do they have jobs or are they claiming benefits?

Whatever it is, they have too much time on their hands.

Idle hands do the devil’s work.

 

[UpperLimits]

The NAZI's, even though they used "Socialist" in their name, were a right-wing fascist group that simply used "Socialist" as a cover for what they were going to do and did do. Fascism is right-wing, not left wing. Socialism is based on attempts to encourage more economic equality and fairness, which is certainly not what the NAZI's did.

Clearly you don't understand what fascism is. Fascism is neither left, nor right. Fascism is a system of totalitarianism. Private ownership; absolute government control. If you think that you can avoid fascism by blaming all your problems, and fighting against, whatever you perceive to be "right wing"; then you're a fool.

I believe it was Ronald Regan who once said that, "If fascism ever came to America, it would come by way of the left." He was absolutely correct. One of the biggest jokes I see is the hypocrisy of fascist groups like BLM and Antifa, supposedly "fighting" fascism by introducing their own brand of left wing fascism. Even their mode of operations is a page out right of a 1920/30's history book.

Of course, people like yourself give them a complete "pass" because they're left wing supporters and fascism is "of course", a "right wing phenomenon." (Face palm.)

Pay attention to what is happening and then compare it to the record. Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric. Now, WHOSE playbook does that more readily identify with? Be honest now....

Socialism is based on attempts to encourage more economic equality and fairness, which is certainly not what the NAZI's did.

Socialism is communism. It may be "communist light", but it's still communist in it's nature.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If Neo-Nazis are not being paid, do they have jobs or are they claiming benefits?

Whatever it is, they have too much time on their hands.

Idle hands do the devil’s work.

See why it doesn't work as an argument?

 

[Notanumber]

See why it doesn't work as an argument?

The organization did not mention the violent attacks against conservatives. One Trump backer was attacked with shovels by a group of men clad in black. He was shown laying unconscious in the middle of the street. A female Trump supporter was blasted with pepper spray while giving an on-camera interview.

Refuse Fascism’s involvement has spurred questions about who is behind the group. In a series of tweets on Thursday, Trump asserted that the protesters were paid to agitate.

While it is unclear whether those who carried out the violence were paid to do so, the benefactors of the Alliance for Global Justice — and Refuse Fascism — are listed online.

According to its most recent 990 tax form, Alliance for Global Justice (AfGJ) received $2.2 million in funding for the fiscal year ending in March 2016.

One of the group’s biggest donors is the Tides Foundation, a non-profit funded by billionaire progressive philanthropist George Soros. Tides gave AfGJ $50,000.

Other notable donors include the city of Tucson and the United Steel Workers labor union. The former gave $10,000 to AfGJ while the latter contributed $5,000.

Charities associated with several major corporations also donated. Patagonia.org, the outdoor apparel and equipment company, gave $40,000. The Ben & Jerry Foundation, the charity associated with the ice cream maker, gave $20,000. And Lush Cosmetic gave $43,950.

Another bit of irony is seen in the $5,000 contribution from the Peace Development Fund, a group that claims to support organizations that fight for human rights and social justice.

Another major donation came from a group that was chaired by Hillary Clinton during the 1980s. The New World Foundation gave $52,000 to AfGJ.

Refuse Fascism did not respond to a request for comment for this article.

Antifa Thugs Demand ‘Overdue Payment’ From George Soros

 

[metis]

Clearly you don't understand what fascism is. Fascism is neither left, nor right. Fascism is a system of totalitarianism.

Absolutely false as far as not being "right"-wing is concerned: "Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum..." -- Fascism - Wikipedia

If you think that you can avoid fascism by blaming all your problems, and fighting against, whatever you perceive to be "right wing"; then you're a fool.

In my religious tradition, we don't label anyone as "fools", or any such insuting names because it is personally demeaning and considered to be nothing short of character assassination. IOW, it's really a form of bullying that we even teach young children not to do and which can cause a great many problems. If the use of such language is acceptable within your denomination, then maybe find one that actually teaches the compassion and justice (fairness) that Jesus taught.

Of course, people like yourself give them a complete "pass" because they're left wing supporters and fascism is "of course", a "right wing phenomenon."

I don't give anyone a "free pass" as people here who really know me can attest to.

Socialism is communism. It may be "communist light", but it's still communist in it's nature.

There are many varieties of socialism, so you actually might consider doing the homework before spouting nonsense. Here: Socialism - Wikipedia

 

[UpperLimits]

Absolutely false as far as not being "right"-wing is concerned: "Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum..." -- Fascism - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Operative word: Usually.
Note: Not absolutely.

Also from Wikipedia.

Position in the political spectrum
Fascism was influenced by both left and right, conservative and anti-conservative, national and supranational, rational and anti-rational. A number of historians regard fascism as either a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine that mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both of those things.Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who drew upon left-wing and right-wing political views.​

A little wisdom from a mid '90's movie....

Do you do stupid things, Forrest?
No, Mama.
Well then you're not stupid, are you? Stupid is, as stupid does.

Revised for 2017....

Do you do fascist things, Antifa?
Yes, Mama.
Well then you're fascist, aren't you? Fascist is, as fascist does.

In my religious tradition, we don't label anyone as "fools", or any such insuting names because it is personally demeaning and considered to be nothing short of character assassination. IOW, it's really a form of bullying that we even teach young children not to do and which can cause a great many problems. If the use of such language is acceptable within your denomination, then maybe find one that actually teaches the compassion and justice (fairness) that Jesus taught.

Is somebody feeling guilty about their own associations? Well then, I guess you'd better talk to your god about it, because his own bible labels those who don't believe in him as "fools".

Too bad you follow such a "personally demeaning" " form of bullying" that is "considered to be nothing short of character assassination."

Now with that out of the way, will you kindly stop deflecting and answer the question. Pay attention to what is happening and then compare it to the historical record. Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric.

"Make the rich pay.... Give us free medicare... Give us free university.... Corporations are ruining America.... The whites have all the privileges... Filthy capitalist pigs!!... The establishment is keeping the little guy down..... Those rich white b*****d's control everything.... " (Shall I go on?)​

Now, WHOSE playbook does that more readily identify with? Be honest now....

 

[metis]

Operative word: Usually.
Note: Not absolutely.

But you insulted me by saying I was a "fool" because it usually is linked to right-wing elements, and yet I see no apology from you for doing that.

Well then you're fascist, aren't you? Fascist is, as fascist does.

Just another insult.

Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric...

Now, WHOSE playbook does that more readily identify with? Be honest now....

Well:
NationalSocialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), more commonly known as Nazism, is the ideology and set of practices associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party, Nazi Germany, and other far-right groups. Usually characterized as a form of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism's development was influenced by German nationalism (especially Pan-Germanism), the Völkisch movement and the anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary groups that emerged during the Weimar Republic after Germany's defeat in First World War...

Although he opposed communist ideology, Hitler publicly praised the Soviet Union's leader Joseph Stalin and Stalinism on numerous occasions...

Generally speaking, Nazi theorists and politicians blamed Germany’s previous economic failures on political causes like the influence of Marxism on the workforce, the sinister and exploitative machinations of what they called international Jewry, and the vindictiveness of the western political leaders' war reparation demands... " -- Nazism - Wikipedia



Frankly, I have had more than enough of your insults, so I'm at least temporarily putting you on my ignore list.

Finally, let me recommend an excellent book, namely "The Imitation of Christ" by Thomas Kempis. The main point in the book is that a Christian should do his/her best to emulate Jesus, and I think you could really use what Jesus actually teaches, especially about compassion and fairness (justice) that's well covered there. And then maybe find a church that teaches that versus a rabid pit-bull approach.

 

[Sleeppy]

Operative word: Usually.
Note: Not absolutely.

Also from Wikipedia.

Position in the political spectrum
Fascism was influenced by both left and right, conservative and anti-conservative, national and supranational, rational and anti-rational. A number of historians regard fascism as either a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine that mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both of those things.Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who drew upon left-wing and right-wing political views.​

A little wisdom from a mid '90's movie....

Do you do stupid things, Forrest?
No, Mama.
Well then you're not stupid, are you? Stupid is, as stupid does.

Revised for 2017....

Do you do fascist things, Antifa?
Yes, Mama.
Well then you're fascist, aren't you? Fascist is, as fascist does.





Is somebody feeling guilty about their own associations? Well then, I guess you'd better talk to your god about it, because his own bible labels those who don't believe in him as "fools".

Too bad you follow such a "personally demeaning" " form of bullying" that is "considered to be nothing short of character assassination."

Now with that out of the way, will you kindly stop deflecting and answer the question. Pay attention to what is happening and then compare it to the historical record. Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric.

"Make the rich pay.... Give us free medicare... Give us free university.... Corporations are ruining America.... The whites have all the privileges... Filthy capitalist pigs!!... The establishment is keeping the little guy down..... Those rich white b*****d's control everything.... " (Shall I go on?)​

Now, WHOSE playbook does that more readily identify with? Be honest now....

You've read the Gospels. You do know that Jesus' followers kept their possessions in common? That it was considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to withhold from the community? What would you call that?