Chat about Hebrews/Judaism

[rosends]

Also - the people from the link I posted are Jewish...I believe that's applicable. That's all.

And the people from the link I posted were Christian. I'm not sure whom that helps unless the point is to present their stories as something people should read.

 

[rosends]

I have heard that if you ask 10 Jews a question, you will get 10 answers and they will all be right.
Can we trust a system like that to get things right?

Yes, in fact, as your question indicates, you can trust it to get things right 10 times.

So here were the Jewish people acknowledging the Lord Jesus as the son of David, who came in his Father's name, fulfilling the prophetic Psalm....and yet a week later they were clambering for his execution. Why? Because the Jewish leaders had convinced the people that Jesus was a phony....a fake Messiah...a false prophet.

Or because the leaders responded to the falsehoods and their teachings spread among the people and that takes time. Or because the agendized text was manufactured and is inauthentic. See, there are a variety of possible answers.

If you ask the Jews even today, you will find that they still believe this.....but no one in all of history has fulfilled Messianic prophesy more than Jesus did.

The Jewish concept of the messiah isn't about "best that we have" -- it is an all or nothing proposition. Failure is failure. And that success or failure has to be measured against the expectations of the experts in the field -- the ones to whom the rules were given and who studied them. This is the Jewish conception of the messiah we're talking about. Anyone else's vision of "good enough" is immaterial.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

The Jewish concept of the messiah isn't about "best that we have" -- it is an all or nothing proposition. Failure is failure. And that success or failure has to be measured against the expectations of the experts in the field -- the ones to whom the rules were given and who studied them. This is the Jewish conception of the messiah we're talking about. Anyone else's vision of "good enough" is immaterial.

Or maybe, they manufactured excuses for failure.

55 Old Testament Prophecies about Jesus | Jesus Film Project

(About 5 of which are word for word straight out of Psalm 22)

How do we know that the prophecies it didn't fulfill were not false prophecies? Even prophets being sent by God, are still humans. The occasionally misunderstand what they see (wrong prophecy), or have their own axe to grind (adding prophecies).

The minor stuff? It's minor stuff.

Read the Gospels. Carefully. It becomes all too clear why they got rid of Jesus, and declared him a fake.

Because he called them on their hypocrisy.

What if I went to a church and made them look bad in front of their followers? The priest would surely try to ruin me. They might talk to people in the town to undermine my business, or they might resort to dirty tricks.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 27:45-28:15 - English Standard Version

They put him on a cross, he dies, the temple curtain is torn, the dead are raised, they put him in a cave with heavy guards, but he overturns a heavy stone and an armed guard, and we get this exchange.

11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. 12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers 13 and said, “Tell people, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

 

[Rival]

Or maybe, they manufactured excuses for failure.

55 Old Testament Prophecies about Jesus | Jesus Film Project

(About 5 of which are word for word straight out of Psalm 22)

How do we know that the prophecies it didn't fulfill were not false prophecies? Even prophets being sent by God, are still humans. The occasionally misunderstand what they see (wrong prophecy), or have their own axe to grind (adding prophecies).

The minor stuff? It's minor stuff.

Read the Gospels. Carefully. It becomes all too clear why they got rid of Jesus, and declared him a fake.

Because he called them on their hypocrisy.

What if I went to a church and made them look bad in front of their followers? The priest would surely try to ruin me. They might talk to people in the town to undermine my business, or they might resort to dirty tricks.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 27:45-28:15 - English Standard Version

They put him on a cross, he dies, the temple curtain is torn, the dead are raised, they put him in a cave with heavy guards, but he overturns a heavy stone and an armed guard, and we get this exchange.

There aren't even 55 messianic prophecies, let alone 300, so this is nonsense. If someone fulfilled 55 prophecies you'd have thought people would have noticed. Especially the people to whom those prophecies were directed. But they didn't. Christianity is a gentile cult.

 

[CLee421]

Rabbinical teaching - original sin. They used to teach it. Now they don't. Why?

 

[CLee421]

What do you make of this please?

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Who has cupped the wind in the palms of His hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in His cloak?
Who established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is his Son’s name?
Surely you know!

 

[rosends]

Or maybe, they manufactured excuses for failure.

55 Old Testament Prophecies about Jesus | Jesus Film Project

(About 5 of which are word for word straight out of Psalm 22)

How do we know that the prophecies it didn't fulfill were not false prophecies? Even prophets being sent by God, are still humans. The occasionally misunderstand what they see (wrong prophecy), or have their own axe to grind (adding prophecies).

The minor stuff? It's minor stuff.

Read the Gospels. Carefully. It becomes all too clear why they got rid of Jesus, and declared him a fake.

Because he called them on their hypocrisy.

What if I went to a church and made them look bad in front of their followers? The priest would surely try to ruin me. They might talk to people in the town to undermine my business, or they might resort to dirty tricks.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 27:45-28:15 - English Standard Version

They put him on a cross, he dies, the temple curtain is torn, the dead are raised, they put him in a cave with heavy guards, but he overturns a heavy stone and an armed guard, and we get this exchange.

The problem you have here is twofold -- the first is in deciding which prophecies are messianic and what they mean. Judaism doesn't agree. The second is in conferring authority on Matthew. Judaism doesn't. So there's that.

 

[CLee421]

And this, as well, please ..?

Psalm 2:7
“I will proclaim the decree:
Adonai said to me,
‘You are my Son;
today I became your Father.
Ask of Me, and I will make
the nations your inheritance;
the whole wide world
will be Your possession.
You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

Therefore, kings, be wise;
be warned, you judges of the earth.
Serve Adonai with fear;
rejoice, but with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
and you perish along the way,
when suddenly His anger blazes.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him.

 

[rosends]

Rabbinical teaching - original sin. They used to teach it. Now they don't. Why?

Rabbinical teaching still teaches about sin, just not your conception of it. Shall we discuss rabbinical teachings? I'm comfy with the Aramaic. Are you?

 

[rosends]

What do you make of this please?

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Who has cupped the wind in the palms of His hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in His cloak?
Who established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is his Son’s name?
Surely you know!

Here's some reading
A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 6. The "Son of G-D" MYTH

 

[CLee421]

Rabbinical teaching still teaches about sin, just not your conception of it. Shall we discuss rabbinical teachings? I'm comfy with the Aramaic. Are you?

Yes!

 

[rosends]

And this, as well, please ..?

Psalm 2:7
“I will proclaim the decree:
Adonai said to me,
‘You are my Son;
today I became your Father.
Ask of Me, and I will make
the nations your inheritance;
the whole wide world
will be Your possession.
You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

Therefore, kings, be wise;
be warned, you judges of the earth.
Serve Adonai with fear;
rejoice, but with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
and you perish along the way,
when suddenly His anger blazes.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him.

Are you really just going to spit verses and ask me to explain each one because you figure that your understanding is the primary and correct one?
So David is apparently God's son.
Well, there's also

Exodus 4:22

And you shall say to Pharaoh: Thus says the L-rd: "Israel is My son, My firstborn."

Hosea 11:1

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.

and also

I Chronicles 22:9--10

Behold, a son shall be born to you [David],...his name shall be Solomon....He shall build a house for My Name; he shall be a son to Me, and I will be a Father to him, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

There aren't even 55 messianic prophecies, let alone 300, so this is nonsense. If someone fulfilled 55 prophecies you'd have thought people would have noticed. Especially the people to whom those prophecies were directed. But they didn't. Christianity is a gentile cult.

They did.

Mark is almost entirely about Jesus fulfilling prophecies of Messiah. People did notice. But then, as now, people also choose not to notice.

Suppose we had a U.S. President that kept most or all of his campaign promises. But the powers that be dislike him, so they crucify him with political spin using the news media and oppose him at every turn (I'm talking about Trump). Now suppose this guy actually is the Real Deal (debatable, but we're making this argument to draw an analogy). The leader we're supposed to have. If you're a childish twit who wants to destroy the country, or someone with a misguided view of what you want from him, there is literally no pleasing you.

We could also do some sort of Jedi Chosen One analogy. The prophecy might have chosen that one person, but "A Prophecy that Misread Could Have Been." On the other hand, the guy nobody expected to amount to anything like because her parents were "nobody" might be the one who was born of the Force. Kinda like... getting born in a manger at a stable.

 

[rosends]

Yes!

Excellent. So what's your הוא אמינא on this?

 

[CLee421]

Here's some reading
A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 6. The "Son of G-D" MYTH

It seems rhetorical - like the language used in Job describing animals.

Obviously God has a Name. If anyone would know it - it would be the Son.

Psalm 2:7 has no identified authorship but the link you sent said David. The book of Acts also affirms David wrote it. That's interesting. And I figured it would be pointed to David. However God did not give "the world" to David. But this Son mentioned.

 

[CLee421]

Excellent. So what's your הוא אמינא on this?

On what specifically? Apologies.

 

[rosends]

It seems rhetorical - like the language used in Job describing animals.

Obviously God has a Name. If anyone would know it - it would be the Son.

Psalm 2:7 has no identified authorship but the link you sent said David. The book of Acts also affirms David wrote it. That's interesting. And I figured it would be pointed to David. However God did not give "the world" to David. But this Son mentioned.

Why do you assume God has a name in a sense that you understand a "name"?

 

[rosends]

On what specifically? Apologies.

On the claim you made.

 

[CLee421]

Does it bother anyone that I dot type G-d like that? If so I will here.

I always thought that was sweet. However I do believe in complete grace - and being that is not actually His Name I hadn't been convicted to do so but can out of respect. JUST wanted to ask.

 

[CLee421]

On the claim you made.

Regarding original sin?

If so - the idea that mankind is fallen away from God because of Adam and Eve in Genesis. It appears that is no longer the line of thinking - but that we need only "apologize" and we are okay.

God killed animals to make coverings for the first 2 humans after the first sin - meaning He performed the first animal sacrifice Himself.

Now, under the claim that animal sacrifices cannot be performed because of the destruction of the Temple, no more sacrifices just repentance. However Abraham and more performed sacrifices outside a temple - regardless of it was before it's time. I don't see the Lord instructing Israel to stop sacrificing.

 

[CLee421]

Why do you assume God has a name in a sense that you understand a "name"?

I do not assume it is like my understanding. My assumption is my head might explode if I heard His name

But scripture does reference His Name a lot.