Chat with Mormons

[Katzpur]

All the angels were made by God but they were not His sons anymore then the animals were His sons. They were created beings. If you make a puppet, that puppet is not your son even though you made it. God made Lucifer and the other angels but they were not His sons.

The Bible says that we are God's offspring, not merely His creations, and that He is the Father of our Spirits.

God did not make Jesus. They were both present together since the beginning.

And as I pointed out in my previous post, Mormons would agree with you as to who and what Jesus was "in the beginning." What the Bible does not tell us is what happened "before the beginning."

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Thanks. I have a better understanding now. A lot more makes sense. I am still not sure if I agree Lucifer is one of God's children if that is actually what you believe. Maybe I will look for more details on this.

 

[Scott C.]

Didn't someone say Mormons do not believe Jesus was God until after his resurrection? But the Bible says the Word was God in the beginning and the Word became Jesus when he was born into a human body.

The missionary that stated this online is mistaken. We identify Jesus as Jehovah, clearly the God of the Bible.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Thanks again. It sounds better and better. Too bad someone made it unclear.

 

[Sonny]

Here's what when I tried to ask a few questions to LDS members.
J (me)
Hello.
6:56 PM

LDS (them)
Hi Jacob! Welcome to Mormon.org. How can we help you?
6:56 PM

LDS
Hello
6:56 PM

J
I have a few questions about the Mormon faith.
6:57 PM

LDS
Ask away!
6:57 PM

j
Great. So.
6:57 PM
You believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.

LDS
Yes.
6:57 PM

J
Okay. Great. And you believe that Jesus is God.
6:58 PM

LDS
We believe that Jesus is a God now that he has been resurrected and glorified.
6:59 PM
We believe that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three separate beings.

J
Right. Now considering, obviously, blood lineage and all, wouldn't Lucifer also be God?
6:59 PM

LDS
So Jesus Christ was not always a God. He was the Son of God until he was resurrected and glorified. We believe in eternal progression. Lucifer was not able to progress to that stage. In fact, he was cast out of God's presence.
7:01 PM

J
Well, let's think here. We have God. The eternal, omniscient, omnipresent being. If God is eternal, then how could He become God? John describes His relationship with the Father as "with God, and was God." Notice the was there. How could He become God, if He was God?
7:02 PM

LDS
First, I want to ask you a question. If we have a rock-solid answer, what would that change in your life?
7:03 PM

J
If you had a rock solid answer, I'd leave. Maybe even consider joining the faith. But you need to answer the question first.
7:04 PM
While you're answering that, I'll ask another question. Do you believe the Bible is infallible?
7:09 PM

LDS
It was hard for a lot of people to understand those things at first. When Christ was on earth He established His church. Later on His doctrine was mingled with doctrines of man. Therefore a lot of misunderstandings arose. We know though that a restoration was needed to bring back the simple truths.
7:10 PM

LDS
Do you know what the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is?
7:10 PM
Also we believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. That's the huge importance of the Book of Mormon, which goes right back to our question. Do you know what the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is?
But to answer your question completely, we know that God is the almighty and he sent his son Jesus Christ to redeem the world from sin. He was the only begotten of the Father and later progressed to becoming a God.
7:13 PM

J
I'll use context clues, and say your trying to "restore" the four books of the gospel to fruition. Yet, you have not answered my questions. However, I' guessing you're going to tryto lead me into a word trap here so I'll go and say it first-hand. If you plan to "restore" the Gospels, you will corrupt such things even more. Which wil lnot help.
7:13 PM

LDS
Our finite minds cannot comprehend the things of eternity.
7:13 PM

J
The Bible is full of contradictions and yet you do not even understand them.
7:13 PM
Oh what a cop-out.
"We cannot understand him."

LDS
That's the whole point. We do not understand why there are contridictions in the Bible. So a man named Joseph Smith read in James 1:5 that if we lack wisdom that we can ask God. He did and God appeared to him.
7:14 PM

J
Heard that one many a-time.
7:14 PM
It's just a cop-out. Didn't Jesus come so we could "know" God?

LDS
We can all ask God what is true and what we should do. If we have a sincere heart to act upon the response, He will answer us
7:14 PM

J
To think He woudld've told us about such things, that there would be a prohet that would make a brand new book.
7:15 PM
Answer you? I'd love to hear this.

LDS
I am not sure what your question is.
7:15 PM

LDS
Joseph Smith didn't make a new book, he translated an existing record into English so that we would be able to read it. It is another witness that there is truly a God and a Savior.
7:16 PM

J
Didn't He have an eternal throne? I'll ask you that.
7:16 PM

LDS
What Sister Fehlmann is true, but we cannot convince you of that and that is not our purpose. We are here to help you find this answer yourself.
7:16 PM
God? Absolutely he has an eternal throne.

J
Then one cannot become God.
7:17 PM

LDS
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, so after he finished His mission here on earth He went back to His Father, which is also our Father in Heaven. Do you believe that there is a God?
7:18 PM

J
I used to.
7:19 PM
Then I realized there was no evidence.


LDS
Humm.. why would you say that there is no evidence? Isn't everything around you an evidence that there must be at least a higher being?
7:20 PM

J
Are you using the "look st the trees and the stars!" argument? No, that's not evidence of God. That's evidence of trees and stars.
7:20 PM

LDS
Well, we cannot provide you solid physical evidence, but we do know that there is a God. A God that loves us and wants us to return home to him. The only way that you can know this as well is to ask God, just as Joseph Smith did and be willing to act on the impressions you receive.
7:21 PM
What are you expecting as an answer

J
I have asked Him. For many years. I waited for an answer. I searched for one. I looked into bout every popular religion there is. I was a very devout Christian until very recently when I realized I wasn't getting anything. God never revealed himself to me. I wanted something to help calm my nerves and meditate on at night.
7:23 PM
I'm not expecting answer. However, if there was an answer which was given, I would convert immediately.

LDS
Jacob, what made you want to speak with us today?
7:24 PM

J
I wanted to speak to you because I thought you had some answers to my questions, but instead you gave me "We couldn't understand."
7:25 PM
I'm not looking to believe. I'm looking for knowledge.
And I feel that religion is as noursihing to the intellect as a picture of air.

LDS
Something that one of the church leaders said is that faith is a conviction about something we believe. While this makes sense to us, believing people, it is often confusing for non-believers. What he mentions is that there are more ways to see than with our eyes, more ways to feel that with our hands, and more ways to hear than with our ears.
7:27 PM
I truly know that not everything that is true needs physical evidence.

LDS
I also know that what Shay says is true. Sometimes we also need to walk by faith, not only by facts
7:28 PM

J
If you don't have evidence, then you are living by an untesitfiable hypothesis. There are thousands of religions of the world.
7:29 PM
I'll ask you a question.
How can you know that your system of beliefs is the right one?
LDS
I don't really understand why that is a bad thing? To believe and know in a loving God that has a plan for us. Who wants us to return home to him so that we can be eternally happy here and in the eternities.
7:31 PM

LDS
Having faith in something is not having a perfect knowledge of something but to believe in something that we cannot see that is true. Just like love. You cannot see it but it is there
7:31 PM

LDS
To know what church is true, you ask God. Just like Joseph Smith. Just like Sister Fehlmann and I. There is no other way to know than through God.
7:32 PM
Again, that is an answer that we cannot give you. You need to search for that on your own.

J
But how do you know that that your God is there, out of all the others? Krishna, Bishnu, the great Ju Ju up in the mountain. There are many testimonies of an answered prayer in every religion.
7:33 PM

LDS
Well, you do your research and you ask God what is true.
7:34 PM

LDS
This is something that a prophet from ancient times said. Alma 32:27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.'' That's how I could come to know that God is there. By acting on the things I believed to be true, even though I wasn't quite sure.
7:34 PM

J
So by your own definition, we can know that a cult is true, because by killing themselves they are acting on what they think is true, even though they weren't quite sure.
7:35 PM

LDS
I think it must also be reasonable, killing is probably nothing God would like us to do
7:36 PM

LDS
It seems you will counter everything we say without acting on a single thing we've told you. There really is no other way of knowing what is true without asking God.There isn't anything else we can explain to you. We are sorry we couldn't help you further in your quest to find truth. We hope you have a great thanksgiving and enjoy your night.
7:37 PM
If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask at any questions another time.
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So yeah, I basically got demolished, but I learned a few things. They used some pretty bogus arguments however. The reason I put this here is t ask any of you if you would use the same arguments for your religion (excluding obviously the things which are mutually exclusive to Mormonism. Thanks in advance.

Been there, done that a couple of times - and recorded a couple. The LDS switched people on me three times. I spoke to six different Mormon missionaries but none would or could answer my questions. For a group that says they have the answers and those answers are plain and easy to understand they sure didn't open my eyes with anything new - just a reworded Bible, basically. So what was the reason for a restoration if they use the Bible for their answers? Plus, they rewrote the Bible (Inspired Version of the Bible) and taught everyone would use it when it was completed. It was finished and no one uses it, not even the LDS church. Imagine that. So, God rewrote the Bible for JS/LDS church and they refuse to use their God's new and inspired Bible. I often ask, since the LDS don't believe in or follow their God's words would they follow my God (Jesus Christ) any better?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I am interested in the idea that we were alive with God as spirits before our physical birth. Could someone give Bible verses about this and discuss further.

 

[Watchmen]

I'm technically LDS but am now a non-believer. Haven't attended an LDS function for about two years now.

Katzpur is generally a good source for LDS info and provided much more accurate info regarding LDS teachings than did the missionaries you were chatting with.

 

[Watchmen]

I am interested in the idea that we were alive with God as spirits before our physical birth. Could someone give Bible verses about this and discuss further.

The following is from an LDS website:

• When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy:Job 38:4–7;
• The spirit shall return unto God who gave it:Eccl. 12:7;
• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee:Jer. 1:4–5;
• We are all his offspring:Acts 17:28;
• God chose us before the foundation of the world:Eph. 1:3–4;
• We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits:Heb. 12:9;
• The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains:Jude 1:6; ( Abr. 3:26; )
• The Devil and his angels were cast out:Rev. 12:9.

 

[Watchmen]

Been there, done that a couple of times - and recorded a couple. The LDS switched people on me three times. I spoke to six different Mormon missionaries but none would or could answer my questions. For a group that says they have the answers and those answers are plain and easy to understand they sure didn't open my eyes with anything new - just a reworded Bible, basically. So what was the reason for a restoration if they use the Bible for their answers? Plus, they rewrote the Bible (Inspired Version of the Bible) and taught everyone would use it when it was completed. It was finished and no one uses it, not even the LDS church. Imagine that. So, God rewrote the Bible for JS/LDS church and they refuse to use their God's new and inspired Bible. I often ask, since the LDS don't believe in or follow their God's words would they follow my God (Jesus Christ) any better?

I have a sneaky suspicion you weren't sincere in your questions and simply rejected out of hand the answers given based on your preconceived notions and beliefs. I'm no longer a Mormon believer but I try to be fair. So try me. What questions do you have that couldn't be answered?

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks. I have a better understanding now. A lot more makes sense. I am still not sure if I agree Lucifer is one of God's children if that is actually what you believe. Maybe I will look for more details on this.

By all means, feel free to do so. However, I really don't think you're going to find a much more comprehensive answer than my earlier one.

 

[Katzpur]

So, is the Word a separate "person"?

No. "The Word" is understood by Mormons to be referring to Jesus Christ, particularly to the premortal Christ.

Now there are more then three. Father, Son Holy Spirit and Word. If the word became flesh and Jesus was flesh, what other way is there to interpret it?

There are just three, and I know of no other way to interpret it.

If Christians interpret it that way then are Mormons not Christians?

We do and we are. Thank you.

 

[Katzpur]

I am interested in the idea that we were alive with God as spirits before our physical birth. Could someone give Bible verses about this and discuss further.

As I believe I mentioned earlier, the Bible describes us, not only as God's creations, but as His "offspring"; it refers to Him as the "Father of spirits." (See Acts 17:28-29 and Hebrews 12:9)

Saveral passages in the Bible allude to the fact that we existed as spirit beings prior to being born into this mortal existence. (My references are from the KJV.)

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 38:7 describes an event that took place in heaven which caused "all the sons of God" (and presumably His daughters, too) to shout for joy. I could go into more detail about what we believe this event to have been, but for the time being will just point out that, as the "offspring" of the "Father of spirits," we were all among those who shouted for joy.

In Ecclesiastes 12:7, we're told that at death, "shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Significant here is the use of the word "return." Since it is absolutely impossible to return to a place where you have never been before, it is evident that our spirits will be going to our pre-mortal home, to a place we had clearly been at some previous time.

One of the most interesting of all references to our pre-mortal existence is found in John 9:1-2. These verses describe a conversation between Jesus and His disciples. It states, "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"

A lot of people miss a very important clue that is found in these verses because they are paying more attention to Jesus' answer. While his answer is obviously very important, it is on the disciples question that I want to focus. They saw a man who had been born blind, and wondered if his blindness was a punishment for his own sins or for the sins of his parents. Clearly, they were considering the possibility that he was being punished for something he had personally done, and yet if this were the case, when could he have sinned, if not at some time prior to his birth? Interestingly, Jesus responded by telling them that the man's blindness was not a punishment for anything, but it is significant that He does not correct them with regards to what would have been a flaw in their reasoning if, in fact, the man had not existed prior to his birth. He doesn't say, "How could this man's blindness be a punishment for his own sins if he was born blind? He didn't even exist prior to his birth, so when do you suppose he could have sinned?" Had Jesus' followers not been familiar with the idea of a pre-mortal life, it is pretty unlikely that they would have even thought to consider this as an option.

LDS doctrine on this subject is not, incidentally, based on our interpretation of these biblical verses, but on latter-day revelation to living prophets. But I do believe that the Bible offers more evidence in favor of this doctrine than it does against it. Finally, I'll give you one additional source, which while non-Biblical, is interesting to consider. In the Gospel of Thomas, which many Christian scholars believe to contain statements Jesus made that are closer to His actual words than those found in the Gospels, He is reported to have said, "Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you shall find the Kingdom; because you come from it, (and) you shall go there again." The doctrine of the our pre-existence that is accepted as a core Mormon doctrine was taught in the early years of Christianity and, interestingly enough, was never formally condemned until 543 A.D.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Thank you for a very interesting and thoughtful explanation.