There is no such thing as absolute truth. But guess who determines our morals. We do. And morals have changed with time, if you don't think so, please read up on your history.
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Cheating on someone you're in a dating relationship with?
- Thread starter -Peacemaker-
- Start date
There is no such thing as absolute truth. But guess who determines our morals. We do. And morals have changed with time, if you don't think so, please read up on your history.
no-body
Well-Known Member
Jesus didn't judge her or make any snotty comments about her lifestyle, he just forgave her, period. I love how you use that parable to judge others. Besides what are you implying anyway that government should butt in and tell people how to live there lives? I'll pass on the taliban, thanks.
And here we come again to where does the authority of your Gods morals come from? You aren't even allowed to answer that question, you just have to think everything he says is fine. Thanks, I'll pass on that too since you can't prove that "Gods" morality isn't just the morality of a bunch of ancient goat herders other than your own belief that is, which I know you want to cram down everyone elses throat because you are insecure.
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Draka
Wonder Woman
If morals haven't changed with the times we'd still have slavery being accepted and bans on inter-racial marriages and stonings and selling off of child-brides being accepted and so very much more. Those things may still go on in the world, but it is generally accepted in most of society that those things are immoral and should not happen. However, they were the common practices not so very long ago and were considered moral (mostly because certain religious scriptures said they were). As society grows up and advances, so do our morals.
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-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
Actually he didn't say anything about forgiving her. He told her not to sin anymore. We don't know if she ended up being forgiven which according to Jesus hinges on repentance and trust in him. People who want to do what the Christian God says is evil love to complain that their being judged. It's about condemning the action, not the person which is exactly what Jesus did. I have yet to call anyone evil though I can come off as a little abrasive on message boards as tone isn't communicated well in this format of communication. I have said that the human heart is filled with wickedness, but that's true even for Christians. I believe calling yourself a Christian is an admission of weakness and an admission that it's only with God's power that a person can truly love ALL PEOPLE, not just their friends. Even the best of us are still sinners however. As far as the taliban thing goes, I'm a red blooded American, their mere thought of having Uncle Sam regulate religion makes me sick.
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-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
Some people love to believe this stuff yet when their challenged to provide the verses supporting it which in this case would be found in New Testament they don't have much to say. Then they say "well it may not be said in so many words but it's the spirit of the law." Yet it the spirit of all Christian teaching on morality comes back to the golden rule and that's the only direction morality should be shifting.
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I was going to pitch something less snarky in until I read the comment by the OP poster asking why there would be a difference between choosing not to deceive a lover and promising to carry out the garbage without a covenent from God.
Maybe this is just a bit of evidence that some people really do require a superstitious crutch in order to try to understand things like altruism and earnest companionship.
Maybe this is just a bit of evidence that some people really do require a superstitious crutch in order to try to understand things like altruism and earnest companionship.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
I can't count all the situations I've had to lean on God's power to get through. If that makes me a weakling so be it. It builds faith immensly to be delivered by the hand of God from adversity. It helps you trust him more with your future even if that means being single and unmarried or lacking the companionship one might want because they're in a bad marriage. And I have absolutley zero confidence in myself to forgive some who's hurt me without the power of God working through me.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
hehehe.. I was just mocking the sacred institution of the dating relationship. Obviously I understand that it's not cool to deceive a lover.
Draka
Wonder Woman
mmhm...care to address the whole post?
If you understand that, then why ask the question?
Do you need a covenant with God to know why you shouldn't take back a serious promise made to a best friend, for instance?
There are different levels of dating just like there are different levels of friendship. Sometimes people have different expectations and fail to communicate them -- for instance, to one person a date might always be exclusive while the person they're dating might assume that dating is open until agreed upon to be exclusive. There are a lot of contextual differences.
Even so, I don't see how this question can be asked in seriousness, though, if you already understand why it's no bueno to cheat on a lover with or without a marriage license.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
No one has an answer for why God lets bad things happen to people who don't deserve them. He hasn't told us why he allows tsunamis and earthquakes to kill thousands of people. In fact all people are promised to have hardship in their life. The security the Christian believes in is that God will help him through hardship not eliminate it. What Christians believe is that the world in it's present state is not how God originally intended it to be. As far as morals go, while you claim to be a Wiccan you appear to essentially operate like an agnostic/atheist does when determining matters of morality. From what I can see, everything you want to believe in has to pass the "does it make sense to me" test as if the human brain is capable of fathoming all things. The truth is, there are plenty of things I believe in as a Christian that I'm not 100% clear on why I'm called to believe in them. I do it because I no longer trust my limited ability to reason to fuction like an unlimited power.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
The question was raised to get people to contemplate the moral dillema in violating a relationship that is immoral in the first place.
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In what way is a mature and responsible intimate relationship between two consenting adults "immoral" in any sense whatsoever "in the first place?"
The only reason I can think of is religious taboo. Well, not everyone believes in your religion. Some of what you do is taboo to some other peoples' religions, which they might find deeply immoral of you -- but does that bother you?
I think most people are bothered by what gets people hurt, physically or otherwise. Responsible pre-marital relationships don't get people hurt.
Draka
Wonder Woman
So, basically you're saying,, that the abuser is doing god's work for him because he obviously wants the victim to be a victim. So it's a godly beating. At least, that's how you make it sound.
Secondly, yes, I'm a Wiccan...and? Just how do you think Wiccans define their morals? Let's think about his. Do you know much about Wicca? Let's see, there are the last two lines of the Wiccan Rede which simply states: "An' it harm none do what ye will". That's the short and sweet of it. Wow, look at that. It works quite well in conjunction with others who hold the same basic view that harming sucks. If you're not causing harm to anyone and you're not allowing yourself to be harmed, then there's no problems. Just because atheists or agnostics might agree with that stance does not make it exclusively an atheist or agnostic stance. It just means that it makes sense to many different groups of people. How nifty huh?
As for the human brain fathoming certain things. Guess what? We are humans. Those of us who base our morals on our reasoning, logic, and empathy are at least using our brains...and coming up with some pretty good standards by the way. While those who apparently don't use their brains for figuring things out, like whether it's okay to divorce your violent spouse or make love to your sweetheart before tying the knot, instead trust their morals to a mythology book about a god with a split personality, an ego the size of Jupiter, and an anger management problem (which apparently tells you to believe things that you can't even figure out why). If you don't trust your own brain and intelligence to figure things out for yourself, then don't get your knickers twisted because some of us do.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
I said the Christian God gives people the option of separating. You then expressed you fears of being alone and unsatisfied when I told you there was nothing to worry about if you've allowed the Lord to be in control of your life. I enjoy coming on these forums to discuss religion as the subject matter is the biggest passion of my life. Nobody's getting bent out of shape about anything.I just hope people today to realize that they're no different than the Egyptians who worshiped sun gods and moon gods. The definition of god is one you put your trust in. Today our gods are more sophisticated, we worship our brain and science. What a flimsy hope that is if we have everything we have riding on it. Reason and the brain are created objects. They're tools and good ones at that but they have limits. The proof of God's existence is everywhere you look. Why trust something with limits if there's something more powerful?
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Draka
Wonder Woman
I expressed my fears? Not quite. I asked why should I be miserable and alone just because I had the bad fortune of marrying an abusive douche? I shouldn't be punished or expected to give up on my own happiness in life simply because your god has messed up expectations and morals.
What's wrong with worshiping Egyptian gods? No more or less reason to worship them than your own version of god.
It appears we have different definitions of what a deity is. You seem to want to put all your decisions and hopes and dreams and consequences and responsibilities onto a deity. That you seem to hold no control or responsibility for taking care of yourself. That is using a deity as a crutch, so as not to think for oneself or learn for oneself. Why bother when you can just pawn those things off on your idea of god? I simply don't see deity that way.
"Created objects???" :areyoucra Our brains are the best tools we have. It's how we connect with others, how we learn, and how we reason. Sure they have limits, sure it's possible there's something more powerful. But perhaps, just perhaps, that something more powerful bestowed us with intelligence and reasoning ability because it expected us to use them for ourselves instead of just pawning that responsibility off on it.
Starsoul
Truth
For war, it is the intent that counts, and the intent is controlled by those who make the offense, sometimes it would be to free the people of a certain land from in-justices( the heads of whom refuse letting go of perpetrating injustices otherwise), and most of the times it would be to capitalize/extend the control of one's regime to topple the other for resources/power etc. One can clearly see which side is wrong.
I agree, moral sense of right and wrong is ingrained in us, but sometimes we twist our thinking into justifying our wrong, and actually believing it to be right. With power comes great responsibility, if you are a parent you can either let your children go astray or be at their guard, you will be shaping their moral sense in so many ways, however if they see you abusing your wife, or cheating on her, one kid might think its wrong, the other might just pick up on it justifying it for himself. Who will make the moral distinction to him?
What I mean to derive from this conversation is, that people all over the world aren't born in perfect situations and that is one fact that we do know, kids growing up in gangster neighbourhoods have a high chance of assuming the gang activities if that is all they see and if that is justified to them( most evils are justifi-able). Kids who are abandonned also go through emotionally traumatic childhood from a very young age, they may justify doing the same when they grow up 'since I was abandonned too, and parental love is not real etc' ignoring the pain that they went through. Or, they might just waste their life in addictions,abuse,crime trying to get back at the world.
In such situations, there has to be a true moral , emotional and spiritual guide, and that in my opinion can only come from the correct depiction of God, who is there for everyone, no matter what, but denying that emotional and spiritual support to oneself, might lead you to refuse to come to terms with a wholesome picture of reality, which, sad to say is not being depicted by anything that we get to see. Whether its the media, movies, novels, music, its all fiction, it does not solve your problems, and that is what people spend most of their time on these days. Education may solve your financial problems, but it hardly caters to the disturbed soul.
Another poster pointed out that if religion was the saviour of morality and behavior why would xtians be in jail, well all that comes down to a personal choice. An athiest can be an average good person, and a believer may not be, but a believer who serves his punishment might want to come clean and be a better person than he ever was, maybe become a hero, which an athiest may never get around to.( just using this as an example, no implications)
Nelson Mandela was in jail for 27 years of his life, was his goodness affected? What was his source of goodness, read his biography. He mentioned in a conversation once, when he was asked how did he have the heart to forgive all those people who had been his enemies for so long, when he came out of prison. He said that he had met a muslim man in prison and he got a few books on the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from him and was inadvertently genuinely impressed by his character, and enquired the muslim man as to what made the prophet forgive all his enemies when islam spread in Makkah, he replied that it was his declaration of general amnesty for all, for all those who had shown extreme enmity and severe disregard for him before the spread of the message of peace; an example never recorded in history before. And that sense of mercy was gifted to him by Allah (The One true God). One can ask for a greater sense of mercy from him, since he is the All merciful.
Nelson was quite touched to hear this and he is said to have practised the same when he became the president.
It is possible to be good to your friends, family , loved ones when you are just the way you are, but in my observation and opinion, people are far more caring, forgiving and gracious when they genuinely believe in God. Because you know then that what goes around, comes around and you fear being accountable to God one day, because he watches every move we make, and what we think.
You can be fully enjoying cheating today, and who knows you might be serious about someone tomorrow and they might be cheating on you as well. No need to mention what becomes of these relations, the society is ridden with them. You really don't loose that much self respect when you bind yourself to some rules, but rules can get boring when humans don't sense being rewarded for them, thats human nature. But when there is a concept of heaven and hell, people at least try to think before what they do; emotional crimes are just as crimes even if the police doesn't catch you for cheating, there is someone out there who might just.
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Alceste
Vagabond
Wiccans, like atheists and such like, are morally autonomous. That means they have to fire up their Goddess-given brains and work out for themselves what is ethically right and proper in any given situation. Unlike authoritarians, we can not simply toss up our hands and let somebody else explain how we ought to behave.
no-body
Well-Known Member
Yeah, i'm sure it's another parable to prove how super witty and smart Jesus Christ is against those evil Jewish pharisees and the story itself has no bearing whatsoever on anything.
"8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
"8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
That doesn't answer anything about why your God's supposed morals are superior to secularism which tries to be fair to all, objective, and evolves. You can say whatever you want, but what it comes down to is you want to apply your own personal opinion and belief to everyone else for no other reason than you believe it's right. Nothing to back it up with but pseudo science and selective anecdotes.
What does the taliban have to do with regulating religion? The taliban wants to cram it's prudish moral standards of living and make everyone adhere to them, which is exactly the same as your Christian dominiomism only in a different costume. The founding fathers by the way where secularist who understand that people need to keep their religion the hell away from government and laws after looking at the mess in England.
blackout
Violet.
And in some cases it is imperative to disolve the legal commitment
for your OWN LEGAL PROTECTION.
If you have a spouse who,
cheats on their taxes,
runs a business illegally,
is completely messing up your finances,
(gambling or such)
owns a property/house with you
and wants to use it illegally,
Any of these things can implicate,
and even RUIN you.
Give you a legal/criminal record,
levy you fines and debts,
ruin your credit,
and even lose you your children,
or land you in jail.
As well, a spouse can use you
and steal what is rightfully yours,
all due to legalities of joint ownership and such.
Legal marriage is ALL about legalities.
Anyone who does not divorce in such circumstances
IS A FOOL.