Check this out....

[RedStorm]

So I was perusing around my google account and saw something that I had written a while ago to explain my stance to my parents, this was a couple months ago maybe around august. I have not edited anything out of it or in it.

**************

This question was posed to me in the middle of a discussion with my parents. I was trying to argue the point that God created evil, which was refuted with the possibility that maybe evil was the absence of God. Well in order to answer this question we need to lay down some definitions and other such things. let's start:

Absence: the nonexistence or lack of.

God in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

Evil: profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Malevolent: having, showing, or arising from intense often vicious ill will, spite, or hatred


God by definition is the creator and ruler of the universe and everything within and beyond our reality. So nothing can be beyond him, nothing exists without him. So going by this it is therefore impossible for him, to be there but not be there. Then you may say to refute this, God is beyond our understanding, logic, and judgement. And he may be, but is this not intentional malevolence or evil? If God created us with free will and created the whole concept of logic and made us think this way, is he not intentionally making such a monumental decision beyond reasonable thought? I’d like to use a quote that’s used often but very effective in its intention,


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus


*************

Re reading it, I think I did a decent job, this took me ten minutes to make, not much work went in to it. My parents sort of drove me off the road of my argument into something different, so thats why it failed, they never could combat this. I think religion is a big emotional thing for some people and it causes them to have a narrow point of view on other peoples opinions.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Epicurus likely never said that, and would more be called a polydeist in modern terms than an atheist. It is a pretty classic quote tho and an objection to the notion of a perfect god that I agree with.

 

[George-ananda]

Because the God definition and concepts you were given by your culture can be shown to have logical problems might just mean the definitions and concepts are not quite right. That is not an argument for atheism really. I personally think the Hindu non-dual (God and creation are not-two) has the best understanding I have heard.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

So I was perusing around my google account and saw something that I had written a while ago to explain my stance to my parents, this was a couple months ago maybe around august. I have not edited anything out of it or in it.

**************

This question was posed to me in the middle of a discussion with my parents. I was trying to argue the point that God created evil, which was refuted with the possibility that maybe evil was the absence of God. Well in order to answer this question we need to lay down some definitions and other such things. let's start:

Absence: the nonexistence or lack of.

God in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

Evil: profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Malevolent: having, showing, or arising from intense often vicious ill will, spite, or hatred


God by definition is the creator and ruler of the universe and everything within and beyond our reality. So nothing can be beyond him, nothing exists without him. So going by this it is therefore impossible for him, to be there but not be there. Then you may say to refute this, God is beyond our understanding, logic, and judgement. And he may be, but is this not intentional malevolence or evil? If God created us with free will and created the whole concept of logic and made us think this way, is he not intentionally making such a monumental decision beyond reasonable thought? I’d like to use a quote that’s used often but very effective in its intention,


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus


*************

Re reading it, I think I did a decent job, this took me ten minutes to make, not much work went in to it. My parents sort of drove me off the road of my argument into something different, so thats why it failed, they never could combat this. I think religion is a big emotional thing for some people and it causes them to have a narrow point of view on other peoples opinions.

That's great and all, and I think it's a good challenge to the Abrahamic interpretation of deity in particular, but it's not an effective argument for belief systems whose gods aren't like this.

 

[Sees]

Responsibility is one of the keys - who has what responsibility according to what authority or reasoned argument? Some people have the idea God, Universe, Government, etc. have the responsibility to take care of all boo-boos and guide us throughout all of our days. It's simply blowing hot air and sharing sorrows if there is no solid foundation other than the individuals idealistic dreams.

A good exercise IMO is trying to go after things like P.o.E. from a variety of religious stances, especially the ones you disagree with/dislike most. It is pretty simple with little bits of time and effort.

 

[Thana]

So I was perusing around my google account and saw something that I had written a while ago to explain my stance to my parents, this was a couple months ago maybe around august. I have not edited anything out of it or in it.

**************

This question was posed to me in the middle of a discussion with my parents. I was trying to argue the point that God created evil, which was refuted with the possibility that maybe evil was the absence of God. Well in order to answer this question we need to lay down some definitions and other such things. let's start:

Absence: the nonexistence or lack of.

God in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

Evil: profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Malevolent: having, showing, or arising from intense often vicious ill will, spite, or hatred


God by definition is the creator and ruler of the universe and everything within and beyond our reality. So nothing can be beyond him, nothing exists without him. So going by this it is therefore impossible for him, to be there but not be there. Then you may say to refute this, God is beyond our understanding, logic, and judgement. And he may be, but is this not intentional malevolence or evil? If God created us with free will and created the whole concept of logic and made us think this way, is he not intentionally making such a monumental decision beyond reasonable thought? I’d like to use a quote that’s used often but very effective in its intention,


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus


*************

Re reading it, I think I did a decent job, this took me ten minutes to make, not much work went in to it. My parents sort of drove me off the road of my argument into something different, so thats why it failed, they never could combat this. I think religion is a big emotional thing for some people and it causes them to have a narrow point of view on other peoples opinions.

Meh, God didn't create evil.
He did create beings who in turn created the concept of evil, however. All God does is allow it.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

So I was perusing around my google account and saw something that I had written a while ago to explain my stance to my parents, this was a couple months ago maybe around august. I have not edited anything out of it or in it.

**************

This question was posed to me in the middle of a discussion with my parents. I was trying to argue the point that God created evil, which was refuted with the possibility that maybe evil was the absence of God. Well in order to answer this question we need to lay down some definitions and other such things. let's start:

Absence: the nonexistence or lack of.

God in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

Evil: profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Malevolent: having, showing, or arising from intense often vicious ill will, spite, or hatred


God by definition is the creator and ruler of the universe and everything within and beyond our reality. So nothing can be beyond him, nothing exists without him. So going by this it is therefore impossible for him, to be there but not be there. Then you may say to refute this, God is beyond our understanding, logic, and judgement. And he may be, but is this not intentional malevolence or evil? If God created us with free will and created the whole concept of logic and made us think this way, is he not intentionally making such a monumental decision beyond reasonable thought? I’d like to use a quote that’s used often but very effective in its intention,


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus


*************

Re reading it, I think I did a decent job, this took me ten minutes to make, not much work went in to it. My parents sort of drove me off the road of my argument into something different, so thats why it failed, they never could combat this. I think religion is a big emotional thing for some people and it causes them to have a narrow point of view on other peoples opinions.

I believe in free will within parameters of being human , the only evil I see in the universe is man made .

 

[Sees]

I believe in free will within parameters of being human , the only evil I see in the universe is man made .

Ever see a baby bird brutally kill its sibling so that it alone could get all the food and attention? Some very disturbing things happen in Nature.

 

[limitedyoke]

to argue faith with reason is to bang your head on stone, you will not move that stone, nor will it break it, all you will be left with is a head ache.
to argue reason with faith is to be a magician trying to make a retired magician believe you have magic.
In other words it's best to move along and only intervene when said belief leads to actions that will hurt others

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Ever see a baby bird brutally kill its sibling so that it alone could get all the food and attention? Some very disturbing things happen in Nature.

Yes , but is also wonderful spectacles of nature .
Overhaul natural uncompromised nature including death was balanced , and sustainable for whole life of sun.
Now add humans to equation is my philosophy

 

[Thana]

Ever see a baby bird brutally kill its sibling so that it alone could get all the food and attention? Some very disturbing things happen in Nature.

To us. We look at it and call it evil or cruel or wrong.
For the birds, It's pretty much par for the course. I watched a nature doco of these buffalo's, I think, Or Oxen, one of the two. Anyway a mother and a calf go up to a lake for a drink, and a croc comes out and chomps on the calf. The mother watches for a while, then walks back to her pack. Like super blasé, didn't care their child just got eaten in front of her and didn't try to help or anything.

So is it really disturbing.... Or does it just seem that way to those of us who subscribe to certain ideals and morals?

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

To us. We look at it and call it evil or cruel or wrong.
For the birds, It's pretty much par for the course. I watched a nature doco of these buffalo's, I think, Or Oxen, one of the two. Anyway a mother and a calf go up to a lake for a drink, and a croc comes out and chomps on the calf. The mother watches for a while, then walks back to her pack. Like super blasé, didn't care their child just got eaten in front of her and didn't try to help or anything.

So is it really disturbing.... Or does it just seem that way to those of us who subscribe to certain ideals and morals?

Some human like the war of chimps , the hunt of the lion , the kill , nature provided all the blood and lust .
If they want see war , go watch the chimpanzee
If you want see blood , watch the lion
Is something for everyone .
However some modern human suffering is synthetic , brought about by consequence of free will .
Can't have everything lol . wanting everything why humans isolated in first place.
When we have everything we need, we learn to want the things we don't need .

 

[Sees]

To us. We look at it and call it evil or cruel or wrong.
For the birds, It's pretty much par for the course. I watched a nature doco of these buffalo's, I think, Or Oxen, one of the two. Anyway a mother and a calf go up to a lake for a drink, and a croc comes out and chomps on the calf. The mother watches for a while, then walks back to her pack. Like super blasé, didn't care their child just got eaten in front of her and didn't try to help or anything.

So is it really disturbing.... Or does it just seem that way to those of us who subscribe to certain ideals and morals?

It's sad for me to always see the prey animals not use their numbers or natural weapons when possible...makes me think of policies to disarm populations.

I do think it is disturbing even though people can argue it is all indifferent, natural stuff going on. I'm not set on everything being awesome until human intervention though. I think this is a world/Universe where the tough, rough, hard can thrive and flourish and the rest will typically whine about the way it is. I expect disturbing things and prepare to encounter them. For me being impartial or indifferent isn't really an option and neither is throwing around blame.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

It's sad for me to always see the prey animals not use their numbers or natural weapons when possible...makes me think of policies to disarm populations.

I do think it is disturbing even though people can argue it is all indifferent, natural stuff going on. I'm not set on everything being awesome until human intervention though. I think this is a world/Universe where the tough, rough, hard can thrive and flourish and the rest will typically whine about the way it is. I expect disturbing things and prepare to encounter them. For me being impartial or indifferent isn't really an option and neither is throwing around blame.

I think it looks a lot worse than it is .
Ever clashed bones with an animal ?
I have several dogs , horses and even a donkey, we come by far the worse off
I don't think they feel pain quite so much , but agreed is unpleasant .
Humans are many times " sicker " than nature , we enjoy it.
Nature is survival

 

[RedStorm]

Yes I don't try to argue some ones faith, in this case all i was doing was coming up with solid reasoning for my point so people know I didn't just decide to be an unbeliever. So people would leave me alone, LOL. Now I'm more open to religion and other philosophies. thats part of the reason i came here to learn about other things like Asatru and Olympianism.


but i doubt i will ever turn back to religion completely

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Ever see a baby bird brutally kill its sibling so that it alone could get all the food and attention? Some very disturbing things happen in Nature.

I had two pet rats. I'd give them both food and one would steal the other's food from his mouth! But there are also rats who have been shown to give up privileges for themselves to help other rats. I don't think animals or plants are inherently more or less moral than us. The only difference is that humans can wreak havoc on a far larger scale, and we have a lot of accompanying hubris around that.

 

[Thief]

God as Creator could form His Reflection easy enough...
but that would be talking to a mirror Image and conversing with an Echo....

anything less would have some 'absence' of God

and here we are

and it was alleged by the Carpenter.....
No one is good but the Father

 

[Sees]

I think it looks a lot worse than it is .
Ever clashed bones with an animal ?
I have several dogs , horses and even a donkey, we come by far the worse off
I don't think they feel pain quite so much , but agreed is unpleasant .
Humans are many times " sicker " than nature , we enjoy it.
Nature is survival

In Ohio we fight animals all the time.

I do think humans can be at the very top in the categories of sick, sadistic, etc. I don't think we are alone though. Even my cute little cat loves to torture mice to death without a single one going down to hatch. Same with my childhood pet dogs who used to play "tug of war" with bunnies.

Maybe a "predators with too much time on their hands and not enough challenges" thing?

 

[RedStorm]

Animals are not directly moral or immoral. we all have different personalities that warrant different things. what matters is on what scale we play these on

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

In Ohio we fight animals all the time.

I do think humans can be at the very top in the categories of sick, sadistic, etc. I don't think we are alone though. Even my cute little cat loves to torture mice to death without a single one going down to hatch. Same with my childhood pet dogs who used to play "tug of war" with bunnies.

Maybe a "predators with too much time on their hands and not enough challenges" thing?

A cat has a brain about the size of a golf ball , bunny a walnut . I cringe sometimes at nature , its provides all the bad .
You want utopia ? Our own success would bring about collapse (
you think is possible to kill from kindness ?
Some pets look very overweight