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Chemical warfare: What's so bad about it?

Bismillah

Submit
Try "banning" conventional weapons and see how far that gets you.
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The international treaty on the banning of chemical weapons, which is a resounding success. I am trying to decipher your line of thinking and it's not working. There will always be war so there is no point in international norms and conventions which prohibit the use of chemical weapons? Is this a serious statement? Maybe if you were in an active conflict where the use of chemical weapons was a real possibility you might be more appreciative of such a treaty.
Signing a piece of paper - when push comes to shove - won't really change much.
It already has. What reality do you live in?
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Bismallah said:
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The international treaty on the banning of chemical weapons, which is a resounding success. I am trying to decipher your line of thinking and it's not working. There will always be war so there is no point in international norms and conventions which prohibit the use of chemical weapons? Is this a serious statement? Maybe if you were in an active conflict where the use of chemical weapons was a real possibility you might be more appreciative of such a treaty.

My reasoning is that trying to "ban" weapons of war won't really work, when push comes to shove - people will literally unleash nuclear weaponry onto cities if they feel threatened enough.

It's a nice idea, but in reality I don't really see it working when a nation is under severe direct threat. If you believe the "ban" on Chemical Weapons is a huge success, why not try a "ban" on Conventional Weapons?

Just see how well that would go.....

It already has. What reality do you live in?
I guess this just boils down to whether or not you believe "banning" something on paper actually prevents people from doing it. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.


 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The major problem with chemical weapons is that they spread. So does napalm. Bombs are probably only bested by chemical weapons in severity. Bullets with depleted uranium are also pretty nasty. Really just about any sort of idea, term, or concept you want to attach to "warfare" is not good.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bullets with depleted uranium are also pretty nasty.

Not really. I mean if we're talking a tank shell with an armor piercing, depleted uranium core than that's something to worry a bit more about. But I've walked all over ranges where depleted uranium rounds are among the masses of fragments and shells that quite literally are the ground you walk on. Also, although I can't attest to this from personal experience, I was told by those who can that certain types of armor plates for tanks and similar vehicles utilize depleted uranium in their armor.

As for the OP: The real reason that chemical warfare is so taboo is it's modern origins- WWI (the reason you don't mix ammonia and bleach). Bombs can kill in any number of ways (shockwave, very quick asphyxiation, blowing one to bits, etc.) and bullets tend to be pretty straightforward. People can suffer and die in pain from both, or die quickly. Chemical warfare is a frighteningly devastating weapon for both sides. It's harder to control in war. It doesn't really ever kill quickly (chemical weapons are poisons, and poisons work by some ingestion method that carries chemicals to the brain or organs in ways that will destroy tissue comparatively slowly). Napalm bombs or similar incendiary devices will burn all the oxygen out of the air (take a look at pictures of the ruins of Pompeii, where families died not from burning alive but because there was no oxygen to breath). Even this is comparatively quick and painless. Sarin, even if given in highly concentrated doses will take a few minutes to kill. And during those minutes you will be choking, coughing, vomiting, experiencing something akin to drowning, horrible stomach pain (possibly diarrhea), and more. You die slowly, in pain and suffering the entire time while your body struggles to take in air just long enough to ensure you choke on your own blood and vomit. You can go to Google pics and search for the hundreds or thousands of pictures of soldiers who were gassed in WWI with Chlorine gas or Mustard gas. It's death by torture on a grand scale.

That's what's so bad about it. That and the fact that you can't control were the poisons you release into the air go.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
As for the OP: The real reason that chemical warfare is so taboo is it's modern origins- WWI.
I think most of us know that. My specific question was
Why is chemical warfare more heinous than conventional warfare?
But, to your point of the WWI chemical warfare taboo. Since WWI, warfare has changed considerably, most notably the capabilities of air power and ground based long-range projectiles/missiles. More importantly, the wholesale destructiveness of these weapons was something never seen in the Great War. Most WWI causalities were caused by single-entry wounds: gun shots or bayonet punctures, and these were almost always confined to those in the armed forces (gases only accounted for 4% of combat deaths). Civilian deaths were seldom battle ground related. But when poison gas came on the scene it was quickly recognized as an indiscriminate weapon that killed in a most ghastly way. It could kill the innocent as well as armed forces and not particularly quickly. Chemical warfare brought two new factors to the war enterprise; massive causalities could be easily inflicted and in a rather gruesome manner, and the threat could possibly carry over to civilian populations. So, with these new threats of warfare looming over the future of the world the Geneva Protocol was signed in 1925 prohibiting the use of chemical and biological weapons.

Then WWII came along. Waging war under the Geneva Protocol prevented all sides from from using chemical weapons, but it didn't keep them from developing far more indiscriminate and powerful weapons. Aside from simply improved firearms and protective gear, the waring sides found that long range artillery, bombs, and land mines were particularly effective in disabling the enemy, their shrapnel and debris cutting down anything in their paths. The injuries were far unlike those seen in WWI. While death by gas was certainly a gruesome way to die, I don't believe it was any more so than to die watching one's intestines spill out of an open belly, or feeling the searing heat of a flame thrower on your face.

The gruesomeness of battle casualties hadn't changed, just the method and nature. And while gas has the capability of spreading and affecting the innocent, it poses no greater threat to civilians than does conventional warfare. Tokyo and Dresden to cite two examples.

I doubt many people writing up the Geneva Protocol could have envisioned the massive losses of life that were to take place in the Tokyo fire bombings, and the Dresden saturation bombings, or the many other ways WWII would inflict suffering on armies and civilians. To them, chemical warfare was thee most threatening device of warfare, and therefore needed to be reigned in. I believe that could they have looked into the future, chemical and biological agents would not have been the only means of warfare they would have on their list.

So, while I readily agree that death by gas can be a very ugly way to die, I don't see it as any more so than the all the various other ways we've devised to kill people in war. But visualize all the trauma one may go through in dying from gas you want, and I'll bet you I could come up with just as many through the use of weapons of conventional warfare.

That said, I do appreciate your attempt, and those of others here, to explain why chemical warfare is more heinous than conventional warfare.
 

averageJOE

zombie


:shrug:

Meh, it's war. Bullets, bombs, carpet-bombs, napalm, "Rainbow Herbicides", Depleted Uranium ammunition, White Phosphorus, Flame-throwers etc.

People are murdering each other, more often than not for unjust reasons. I often feel trying to "regulate" something such as War to be rather pointless. Sooner or later, when feces impacts with the rotary fan, people aren't going to play by the rules - the instinct of self-preservation at all costs will inevitably kick-in.

Why don't we instead try to find peaceful and lasting solutions before resorting to War, rather than trying to "police" War itself?

So after all peaceful resolutions have been exhausted and war in inevitable you believe chemical warfare is fair game?
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
So after all peaceful resolutions have been exhausted and war in inevitable you believe chemical warfare is fair game?

I believe it will (along with all other forms of warfare) be inevitable if a nation is determined enough to survive against outright conquest.

Obviously there are practical reasons against relying on Chemical Weapons (containment etc), but on a moral level, I'm fairly confident a nation will resort to using just about any weapon to win a war, assuming it doesn't end up accidentally destroying itself in the process.

If we didn't have to worry about Nuclear Fallout, then I'm pretty sure we'd resort to using nukes against enemy cities (again), in order to win a war against a serious foe.

Personally, I'm very-much so anti-war under most circumstances, I'd rather try to prevent wars from happening in the first place, rather than trying to "police" how nations conduct actual warfare.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then WWII came along. Waging war under the Geneva Protocol prevented all sides from from using chemical weapons, but it didn't keep them from developing far more indiscriminate and powerful weapons.
It did, for the most part. A blast radius is a blast radius. Whether I have a grenade or a nuclear bomb, I can be pretty sure what's going to happen when I use it. Sure, I can flatten a city block with an artillery strike, or I can the surgical precision that we have been capable of for some time now thanks to increasingly sophisticated guiding systems. The exceptions to this are things like Agent Orange, which continues to cause health problems through things like birth defects (so do the chemical weapons from WWI, actually). Aside from nuclear weapons, there isn't much out there that can cause serious health problems to people who weren't even alive during war.

While death by gas was certainly a gruesome way to die, I don't believe it was any more so than to die watching one's intestines spill out of an open belly, or feeling the searing heat of a flame thrower on your face.

Sure, all three are unpleasant. So is bleeding out and all kinds of trauma possible with everything from bullets to debris. The main difference is that it is quite easy to die almost instantaneously from just about all weapons used in war. And as medical care has increased in sophistication (even since Mogadishu, which was the impetus for cutting-edge clotting technology for first aid in urban warfare), those who don't die are able to receive morphine and medical treatment to be stabilized and live. Does this mean war isn't gruesome and horrifying? Of course not. But gas changes the level drastically.

The gruesomeness of battle casualties hadn't changed, just the method and nature.
Which changes the gruesomeness of battle casualties. Trauma is trauma. I can get a scratch or have my leg shot off by a .50 cal. round, but the damage to tissue is similar in both cases (especially from a medical viewpoint). Gas is poison. It works via a fundamentally different process than other weapons. It doesn't cause damage to tissue the way bullets, shrapnel, bombs, even flame do. All these destroy tissue through trauma. The same antibiotics that can prevent infection from an open wound can do so for severe burns. The same clotting agents that can stop massive blood loss from a bullet wound can do so for shrapnel. Gases don't work like this. If they do external damage, is secondary. You die without even the natural painkillers provided by shock and adrenaline, in minutes or more, with nothing anybody can do. If you don't die, there are a myriad of health problems you are likely to face.

Gassing isn't really a great method. From a psychological warfare point of view, it's likely to cause damage to both sides. It's much harder to control, dangerous to transport, and has no advantages over bombs/missiles. The "shock and awe" that we want isn't massive destruction but taking out specific targets. It's easy to level cities to the ground.

it poses no greater threat to civilians than does conventional warfare
It does. If we want to kill civilians, then sure- we don't need gas. But if we don't want to, it's much harder not to with gas. And nothing, other than nuclear bombs, (which aren't conventional) causes the long-lasting health problems that can physiologically affect those who haven't even been born. Conventional warfare involves trauma, from cuts and scrapes to severed limbs and gaping wounds. These can be horrific, bad but manageable, lethal, relatively harmless, etc. Gases are toxins. If they don't kill you, the damage they do is to internal organs. They can cause cancer, damage to organs that isn't detected until later, birth defects, a wide range of respiratory problems, neurological problems, and so much more. You can't get much more gruesome and, as there's no advantage to using gas, there's no reason to cause such horror.

I doubt many people writing up the Geneva Protocol could have envisioned the massive losses of life that were to take place in the Tokyo fire bombings
The battles of Verdun and the Somme were possibly the most bloody, brutal, and devastating in human history. More people were killed in a day than in the bombing of Dresden. More people were killed in Verdun than in both the Dresden bombings and the Tokyo firebombing put together. The shelling of the opposite side during WWI followed by the "over the top" orders where men charged machine guns and were mowed down because they used tactics that hadn't been viable for at least 40 years and were less than ideal since the late 18th century. There's a reason it was called The War to End All Wars. And the use of gas was a big one.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Not really. I mean if we're talking a tank shell with an armor piercing, depleted uranium core than that's something to worry a bit more about. But I've walked all over ranges where depleted uranium rounds are among the masses of fragments and shells that quite literally are the ground you walk on. Also, although I can't attest to this from personal experience, I was told by those who can that certain types of armor plates for tanks and similar vehicles utilize depleted uranium in their armor.
Iraq: War's legacy of cancer - Features - Al Jazeera English
Fallujah, Iraq - Contamination from Depleted Uranium (DU) munitions and other military-related pollution is suspected of causing a sharp rises in congenital birth defects, cancer cases, and other illnesses throughout much of Iraq.

As for the OP: The real reason that chemical warfare is so taboo is it's modern origins- WWI
That's what's so bad about it. That and the fact that you can't control were the poisons you release into the air go.
While "chemical warfare" may have a new face and new devices, the concept is far from modern. People have been using the diseased and the dead as methods of warfare for a very long time now.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Iraq: War's legacy of cancer - Features - Al Jazeera English



While "chemical warfare" may have a new face and new devices, the concept is far from modern. People have been using the diseased and the dead as methods of warfare for a very long time now.
1) Using disease is biological warfare, not chemical.

2) I said "it's modern origins" to make the exact distinction you do. The use of chemicals in war goes back to naptha and pitch and daggers dipped in poisons. But that's not what we mean by chemical warfare these days. "Modern" was a qualifier, not a compound (i.e., not "it's origins, which are modern"). Think "modern physics", and you'll get the sense I meant.

3) I also said that depleted uranium in tank shells can be a problem, and you linked to a source on just this kind of issue.

4) I don't trust newspapers to report accurately about hazards, as they get everything science related (among other things) wrong. I particularly don't trust al jazeera.
 
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Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
LegionOnomaMoi said:
It did, for the most part. A blast radius is a blast radius. Whether I have a grenade or a nuclear bomb, I can be pretty sure what's going to happen when I use it. Sure, I can flatten a city block with an artillery strike, or I can the surgical precision that we have been capable of for some time now thanks to increasingly sophisticated guiding systems. The exceptions to this are things like Agent Orange, which continues to cause health problems through things like birth defects (so do the chemical weapons from WWI, actually). Aside from nuclear weapons, there isn't much out there that can cause serious health problems to people who weren't even alive during war.

Agent Orange, isn't it's use technically illegal under international law? Yet the US was spraying it all over Vietnam.
The US and UK have been using DU tank shells in Iraq too, along with White Phosphorus.

Honestly, I think another reason for my stance on Chemical Weapons is because (with recent events regarding Syria) I don't want to add fuel to this US-led effort to try and intervene directly against Assad.

To my knowledge, over 100,000 Syrians have been killed via conventional weapons (this is apparently acceptable), yet a few hundred more civilians being killed via chemical weapons is now suddenly a major issue, crossing the "red line". I don't get it. :shrug:


 

averageJOE

zombie


I believe it will (along with all other forms of warfare) be inevitable if a nation is determined enough to survive against outright conquest.

Obviously there are practical reasons against relying on Chemical Weapons (containment etc), but on a moral level, I'm fairly confident a nation will resort to using just about any weapon to win a war, assuming it doesn't end up accidentally destroying itself in the process.

If we didn't have to worry about Nuclear Fallout, then I'm pretty sure we'd resort to using nukes against enemy cities (again), in order to win a war against a serious foe.

Personally, I'm very-much so anti-war under most circumstances, I'd rather try to prevent wars from happening in the first place, rather than trying to "police" how nations conduct actual warfare.

So this is a "YES"? You believe chemical warfare to be fair game? If done today by the US?
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
So this is a "YES"? You believe chemical warfare to be fair game? If done today by the US?

I guess that depends on what you mean by "fair game". I don't view resorting to Chemical Weapons as a particularly wise thing to do, myself. But I believe virtually any nation will resort to using such weaponry, if the threat of conquest/instinct of national survival is strong enough.

The US has a recent history of using such weaponry in wars, even conflicts such as Vietnam, where (let's face it) the US wasn't exactly in any real danger from the North Vietnamese.

I consider war in general to largely be an admission of failure on behalf of the people instigating it. Please don't assume I'm blood-thirsty or whatever, I just don't really see the point in trying to "police" warfare once the decision to actually engage in a war has already been made.

Don't get me wrong, ideally I'd like humanity to just magically ban chemical weapons, but then if such a ban were to actually work then I'd rather just ban War, if you know what I mean? Placing "bans" on stuff is nice, but it won't actually be enforced correctly, when push comes to shove.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Not really. I mean if we're talking a tank shell with an armor piercing, depleted uranium core than that's something to worry a bit more about. But I've walked all over ranges where depleted uranium rounds are among the masses of fragments and shells that quite literally are the ground you walk on. Also, although I can't attest to this from personal experience, I was told by those who can that certain types of armor plates for tanks and similar vehicles utilize depleted uranium in their armor.

As for the OP: The real reason that chemical warfare is so taboo is it's modern origins- WWI (the reason you don't mix ammonia and bleach). Bombs can kill in any number of ways (shockwave, very quick asphyxiation, blowing one to bits, etc.) and bullets tend to be pretty straightforward. People can suffer and die in pain from both, or die quickly. Chemical warfare is a frighteningly devastating weapon for both sides. It's harder to control in war. It doesn't really ever kill quickly (chemical weapons are poisons, and poisons work by some ingestion method that carries chemicals to the brain or organs in ways that will destroy tissue comparatively slowly). Napalm bombs or similar incendiary devices will burn all the oxygen out of the air (take a look at pictures of the ruins of Pompeii, where families died not from burning alive but because there was no oxygen to breath). Even this is comparatively quick and painless. Sarin, even if given in highly concentrated doses will take a few minutes to kill. And during those minutes you will be choking, coughing, vomiting, experiencing something akin to drowning, horrible stomach pain (possibly diarrhea), and more. You die slowly, in pain and suffering the entire time while your body struggles to take in air just long enough to ensure you choke on your own blood and vomit. You can go to Google pics and search for the hundreds or thousands of pictures of soldiers who were gassed in WWI with Chlorine gas or Mustard gas. It's death by torture on a grand scale.

That's what's so bad about it. That and the fact that you can't control were the poisons you release into the air go.

1) Using disease is biological warfare, not chemical.

2) I said "it's modern origins" to make the exact distinction you do. The use of chemicals in war goes back to naptha and pitch and daggers dipped in poisons. But that's not what we mean by chemical warfare these days. "Modern" was a qualifier, not a compound (i.e., not "it's origins, which are modern"). Think "modern physics", and you'll get the sense I meant.

3) I also said that depleted uranium in tank shells can be a problem, and you linked to a source on just this kind of issue.

4) I don't trust newspapers to report accurately about hazards, as they get everything science related (among other things) wrong. I particularly don't trust al jazeera.
Al Jazeera was just the first non-far slanted source (Huffpost came up twice before Al Jazeera) I found on it. Plenty of sources though do mention it, and the World Health Organization has even been looking into it.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Al Jazeera was just the first non-far slanted source (Huffpost came up twice before Al Jazeera) I found on it. Plenty of sources though do mention it, and the World Health Organization has even been looking into it.
Since when is Al Jazeera a "non-far slanted source"!?? I'm not saying tons of depleted uranium has no side-effects. That's why I included a caveat. It has nothing on things like nuclear weapons or chemical weapons which, unlike depleted uranium, are not designed to be safe to handle. Hence the modifier "depleted".
 
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