child death due to parent's religious belief

[Autodidact]

Parents are stewards for their children, not owners. The child still has rights that deserve to be protected, and when a parent fails in this duty, the responsibility falls to society at large, or its agents, the state.

I suppose the parents should be prosecuted, but I think that's a poor alternative to the best course of action, which would be to protect the child while she was still alive. I'd prefer any efforts on this go toward prevention before punishment.

I'm thinking that prosecution can serve as part of the educational efforts. It makes a clear statement that the state regards these actions as wrong, and brings attention to the cases where prayer alone failed. I think these parents actually mistakenly believe that their child is going to be cured by prayer alone, so it's important to let them know before it's too late that it doesn't work.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't think they should be prosecuted on the basis of religion. They firmly believed that their daughter would be saved by God if they just prayed enough, and I'm sure this death more of a blow to them than it would normally be, because they are no doubt questioning their faith right now.

I think they should be taught that medical help should always be the first choice. If the medical care fails, only then should the prayer be used. I think persecution would just make things worse, for them, and for their religious group. Think about it. They lost their daughter, whom they surely loved to death, they likely are losing their faith, and on top of that, they might go to jail for something they don't believe to be wrong. I can't imagine an emotional hell worse than that.

It's one thing to hear a child choking to death and just continue changing the channel. It's another thing entirely to believe in an alternate method of healing, which in the cold reality doesn't really work, and to use it. I'm not angry with those parents. I weep for them.

So, just to be clear, if I deny my child medical care because I'm lazy or cheap, I should be prosecuted, but if I deny her medical care because of my religious belief, I should not? What if my religious belief is voodoo--should I still be protected from prosecution? What if I have more kids at home, should I be allowed to keep them?

 

[Autodidact]

Probably prosecuted, but I don't know enough about it to say.

But please don't start blaming all religion for her death.

Please don't start assuming what I'm going to say before I say it.

It's a general hypo, Starfish. There are a few of these cases ever year. A child is diagnosed with a chronic condition, usually diabetes. The parents belong to some obscure, tiny church where the pastor preaches directly from the Bible that prayer and faith are all that's needed to heal, and seeking medical treatment represents an abandonment of faith. They all pray for the child, who dies from a treatable condition. In your opinion, should such parents (and pastor?) be prosecuted?

Here's a recent on in Oregon, where the parents are being prosecuted, one in Wisconsin where the law shields them. (There are a couple of these cases in the U.S. each year.) Which state is handling it right?

 

[Autodidact]

He didn't say that he agreed, just that hethinks parents should be able to teach it...

I think that it is absurd what happened... but the people truly thought they were doing the best thing to heal their child... They have already had enough of a punishment with their child dieing...

So they should not be prosecuted, in your view?

 

[Autodidact]

Jehovah Witness's are not allowed blood transfusions and carry cards specifically stating they wont accept them. When I was in the hospital with cancer I had surgery to remove the tumor and almost died because my mom refused blood transfusions....

Ok... end rant.

For the record Im fine now. No cancer etc... I happen not to believe in god. You can hate me now, but I wont start believing.

Wow, Balance, quite the story. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Starfish]

I'd bet anything that religion SAVES many, many lives in various ways. Too bad it can't be measured, scientifically.

 

[Autodidact]

I'd bet anything that religion SAVES many, many lives in various ways. Too bad it can't be measured, scientifically.

If religion saved lives, couldn't that be measured? In any case, as someone (you?) pointed out, it's not religion in general we're talking about here, but a specific case of a specific religion, which clearly is killing children, not saving them.

 

[Autodidact]

I think these cases highlight several different interesting issues, such as the (lack of) efficacy of prayer, the value of life, freedom of religion, politics, etc. I'll start with one: political clout.
We know that these cases happen; they've been happening for quite a while. There's not a lot of them, but a few children will die every year as a result. (around 150 in the last 25 years that we know of.) By exempting these parents from being prosecuted, I think we're saying in effect that's O.K. with us. We can live with a few children dying, and will not hold those responsible accountable for that. I think that's wrong, and I speculate that it's a result of the power of the religious right in the U.S. Just pure, naked power without any rational justification. Basically, their right to belief things that are false trumps the children's right to be protected and cared for. I think that's wrong.

 

[Sententia]

I think these cases highlight several different interesting issues, such as the (lack of) efficacy of prayer, the value of life, freedom of religion, politics, etc. I'll start with one: political clout.
We know that these cases happen; they've been happening for quite a while. There's not a lot of them, but a few children will die every year as a result. (around 150 in the last 25 years that we know of.) By exempting these parents from being prosecuted, I think we're saying in effect that's O.K. with us. We can live with a few children dying, and will not hold those responsible accountable for that. I think that's wrong, and I speculate that it's a result of the power of the religious right in the U.S. Just pure, naked power without any rational justification. Basically, their right to belief things that are false trumps the children's right to be protected and cared for. I think that's wrong.

Correct. Their freedom is infringing on the freedoms of another. Thats usually a simple way to condense most issues to find the morality.

In this case their freedom to a belief system is infringing on their childs freedom to get medical treatment and live. Or their freedom to raise their child in their religious way is infringing on their childs right to exist.

Rudolf Steiner did some great work on the philosphy of freedom.

Yet ideally we should have prevented that child's death. Prosecuting them now will make it less likely that they will do it again and may dissuade others not to do it but people die every year. As I mentioned earlier I was almost one of those people, but do a google search on Blood Witness Dies. Thats one belief but there others that also lead to death. Faith Healing, Prayer Healing and going overboard with the "He says use the rod, spare the rod spoil the child etc etc".

As mentioned earlier a girl was in critical condition because her mom was trying to "Beat the demons out of her".

However it is unfair to say all pointless causes of death because of a stupid belief is because of religion. A belief in god does not mean you will deprive your child of medical care and watch them die at home as you and your congregation prays for them. Some would argue its a problem with the person not their beliefs. But if the article is correct and the whole congregation knew that the child was being deprived of her right to live and the minister preached and visited the house and recommended this course of healing shouldn't all of them be prosecuted? If a teacher sees a bruise or welt and doesn't report it they can lose their job and be prosecuted.

Ultimately responsibility for the child falls on the parent and the parent is there to prevent such abuse. But we can't rely solely on the parent as the parent may be the one who is the abuser. In such cases I would think those that knew and did not notify the local police department and DCYS are all responsible as well.

 

[Autodidact]

And then there's this irony. These churches tend to be quite conservative and strongly opposed to abortion. So for them, to remove a non-sentient embryo is murder, but to allow a ten-year old child to die is not only permissible; it's required.

 

[Riverwolf]

So, just to be clear, if I deny my child medical care because I'm lazy or cheap, I should be prosecuted, but if I deny her medical care because of my religious belief, I should not? What if my religious belief is voodoo--should I still be protected from prosecution? What if I have more kids at home, should I be allowed to keep them?

Do you have a problem with voodoo? Are you saying that if your child dies because you used a revenge-doll on her you should be protected? Of course not. That's pure murder and should be treated as such, not to mention black magic which is extremely dangerous anyway and should be avoided at all costs. I'm not going to claim anything about voodoo, because the truth is that I don't really know anything about it. If you know something about it that leads you to believe that it is evil and be able to back it up from the testimony from practicing members and not false propaganda, then tell me.

I'm trying to say that I don't understand your argument. My views are based on what I know right now, and I'm open to changing them if you can give me ample reason to do so. Otherwise, I won't change them, however offensive they may be or cold they may sound. Then again, I don't really consider death to be as tragic as people say. With death comes new life. When I die, whenever my time comes, my body will return to the earth and feed her, allowing for new, fertile soil for plants to grow. And if I'm cremated, my ashes will also fertilize the earth. So I see death not as a scary, sad thing, but as a chance for new life. Now, does that mean that I'm going to commit some ritual suicide or go out on a killing spree? NO WAY!! We die when our time comes. No sooner, no later. I do not control such things, nor will I ever attempt to. It is sad when people die, but it's also something to celebrate. In Ireland, there's a saying. "Paddy. what a fine corpse ye've made!" Call me morbid, but that's my view. And so we all know, all my grandparents are dead, three of them died when I was alive, and a good friend of the family died a few years ago with whom I was very close. So I am quite familiar with death. Not as familiar as others, but familiar. And I know that if I had been born in any other generation, I probably would have died early on because of my asthma. I have come pretty close to hospitalization before, so death is not something new to me.

 

[feather]

In my opinion I believe it can be a positive thing for children to be brought up with an insight into religion, of course it depends on what the parents believe in. But I don't respect any religion that won't allow a sick child to be seen by a doctor. I am only going by the first topic, obviously the young girl would've been very unwell for quite some time. I wonder how the parents felt about it after they lost their child... Its really sad.

 

[Kcnorwood]

I think what bugs me the most is that these parents ( if you can call them that) seem to care more about thier God then they do for thier child. Religion is a inmportant part of everyones life & thats fine but I'll put my family first I worship my Gods & love them but I believe that they would want me to take care of my family.

 

[alpha&omega]

ignorance is bliss if you dont know the consiquences,they chose to ignore reality and bury there minds in fanatic faith,i believe in a higher power but if i need blood theres the means to get it cause its there,no harm no foul,ppl donate to save,blood organs even skin,volintarily to help

not doing anything is sloth,and giving there dauters life to prove there faith,pretty much a sacrifice of idiocy!im all for faith healin but if cancer comes my way cemo,homiopathy remidies and even voodoo id give a shot cause one clear doctrine of all religion is life is a gift and you dont just wait for a miricale you look for it,cemo puttin cancer into remission is miraculase we fight for life,those parents should be judged for doing nothing when they could have wich is wors than killin for compasion,kavorkian at lest believes its right,they r blinded by parables and myths about martyrs and wanted prayer and ritual to heal,diabetes is developed from bad diet or born with it either way the parents choices killed there child when a little insoline would have bin all she needed!this isnt religion this is a cult of the stupid,jesus would have gave her some wine made from water to raise her blood suger level at least and tried to help,not watch her die!ignorance is not knowing and unless you grew up in a shack in the catskills or hemilayas they knew there was a cure!burn in hell they will for infanticide!

 

[alpha&omega]

i agree love and familly r key and any religion that seperates familly over ideals is wrong,seculer religion is political not faith.Alah didnt mean killing inocents by gi had its protect inocents,power and wealth are aquired by sothsayers who twist scriptures to suit there means!The new testiment is proof of this,censored edited and revised ghospels chosen to apease the masses and reunite a divided empire,which the main organizer constantine never even believed in,a mithriac pagan whom suposidly might have only taken baptism on his deathbed!

 

[alpha&omega]

all gods r old,belinos,thoth,jesus,quazicotl,crom,baal,aberax,yahew,vishnu,all the same just interperated culturaly into an manifestation that they recognize!the creator to natives,jesus to christans ,alah to moslems,and buhda,all enlightened in there own way whom give comfort!we all come from star dust,but culture molds views,politics is why religions become heretic,exuse to subjigate and exploit over texts twisted to suit the means of gainin power,jesus was a jew yet his followers invaded and masacered the birth place of faith,europeans used christs name to gain riches whom the pope gods chosen voice on earth said to do,yet violates how many comandments,thow shall not kill,steal,covet thy niebors wife,sloth....ect,true cristians help all ppl,race sex or beliefs dont matter cause life is the gretest gift,buhdism,and certain cristian sects do help but,pedophilia so abundant were our new pope who served as a nazi has to apologize and changes comandments just doesnt make sense!

 

[Autodidact]

Do you have a problem with voodoo? Are you saying that if your child dies because you used a revenge-doll on her you should be protected? Of course not. That's pure murder and should be treated as such, not to mention black magic which is extremely dangerous anyway and should be avoided at all costs. I'm not going to claim anything about voodoo, because the truth is that I don't really know anything about it. If you know something about it that leads you to believe that it is evil and be able to back it up from the testimony from practicing members and not false propaganda, then tell me.

I'm trying to say that I don't understand your argument. My views are based on what I know right now, and I'm open to changing them if you can give me ample reason to do so. Otherwise, I won't change them, however offensive they may be or cold they may sound. Then again, I don't really consider death to be as tragic as people say. With death comes new life. When I die, whenever my time comes, my body will return to the earth and feed her, allowing for new, fertile soil for plants to grow. And if I'm cremated, my ashes will also fertilize the earth. So I see death not as a scary, sad thing, but as a chance for new life. Now, does that mean that I'm going to commit some ritual suicide or go out on a killing spree? NO WAY!! We die when our time comes. No sooner, no later. I do not control such things, nor will I ever attempt to. It is sad when people die, but it's also something to celebrate. In Ireland, there's a saying. "Paddy. what a fine corpse ye've made!" Call me morbid, but that's my view. And so we all know, all my grandparents are dead, three of them died when I was alive, and a good friend of the family died a few years ago with whom I was very close. So I am quite familiar with death. Not as familiar as others, but familiar. And I know that if I had been born in any other generation, I probably would have died early on because of my asthma. I have come pretty close to hospitalization before, so death is not something new to me.

Just trying to clarify your views. If I get you right, what you're saying is that if a Christian fundamentalist wrongly believes that prayer alone will cure their child of diabetes, and their child dies as a result, they should not be prosecuted, but if a follower of voudou equally falsely believes that their child can be cured by voudou ritual, and their child dies, they should be prosecuted, is that right? And if they just can't be bothered with medical care, also prosecution, but not if the cause is their Christian religious belief. Is that right?

My argument is not complicated, it's that parents who deny their children medical treatment for any reason should all be prosecuted, whether due to religious belief or otherwise.

And while you may find death only a minor inconvenience, our law does not so regard it, which I think is appropriate.

 

[Riverwolf]

Just trying to clarify your views. If I get you right, what you're saying is that if a Christian fundamentalist wrongly believes that prayer alone will cure their child of diabetes, and their child dies as a result, they should not be prosecuted, but if a follower of voudou equally falsely believes that their child can be cured by voudou ritual, and their child dies, they should be prosecuted, is that right? And if they just can't be bothered with medical care, also prosecution, but not if the cause is their Christian religious belief. Is that right?

My argument is not complicated, it's that parents who deny their children medical treatment for any reason should all be prosecuted, whether due to religious belief or otherwise.

And while you may find death only a minor inconvenience, our law does not so regard it, which I think is appropriate.

Not as a minor inconvenience, but a necessary part of life, just like sex, only mandatory. With death comes new life. It's like having sex with the earth... except that it's not quite as fun. The Law can view it however it wants, however. I'm not a huge fan of his extremist views and inflexibility, but whatever. Most monarchs, living or idea, were like this. Not with death, but with other things like the copyright laws and corporate rule over the middle class.

And no. I said they shouldn't be prosecuted on the basis of religion, either Christian, Voudou, Satanism, or anything else. I'm sorry I didn't make this clear, but it was two in the morning last time I posted. It is still negligent homicide, so yes, they should spend some time in jail. But they loved their child with all their hearts, and felt that this was the best way for her to get better. A "parent" who is lazy and just forgets their child in my opinion should get the life sentence, as that's more like murder. These parents in my opinion would probably do better with community service for a couple of years, to help them once again realize the value of life, rather then spend years in a wet, cold, rat-infested cell. That, along with the loss of their child, the likely loss of their faith, and the conflict with the law, would make anybody feel suicidal. I'm not saying that if they went to jail that they'd definitely commit suicide, somehow, but I think it would just make them lose what humanity they have left and make them go mad, literally.

...This whole thing kinda reminds me of "The Exorcism of Emily Rose." hmm...

 

[Autodidact]

Here's another wrinkle. Say hypothetically for some bizarre reason (I can't even think one up) that a group of atheists were denying medical treatment to their children because of their lack of belief in God. How long do you think it would take for them to be prosecuted?

 

[Riverwolf]

Here's another wrinkle. Say hypothetically for some bizarre reason (I can't even think one up) that a group of atheists were denying medical treatment to their children because of their lack of belief in God. How long do you think it would take for them to be prosecuted?

I think it would depend on what the bizzare reason is. Though an atheist denying medical treatment because of a lack of belief in God... well if the nearest hospital for twenty miles was a Christian-run hospital, then I guess in extreme cases it would make sense as to why an extreme atheist would deny thier child medical treatment from that particular hospital to prevent their child from obtaining religious ideas, but in my opinion, that is no excuse.

So we're clear, I believe that it is wrong to keep a sick child from getting medical care because of anything. If someone is sick, get help. Physical help. Prayer comes afterwards. Prayer that the medicine works, or that the operation is successful. Medical care comes first in my opinion. So I don't claim that these parents did the "right" thing by my eyes. I just say that they believed they were, and loved their daughter unconditionaly.

Yeesh, I'd make a lousy defendent in court.