Child-like faith in reason

[Kooky]

The jilted idealist often mistakes hard-nosed cynicism for maturity, and cold-heartedness for wisdom.

 

[Augustus]

The jilted idealist often mistakes hard-nosed cynicism for maturity, and cold-heartedness for wisdom.

Anything to add about the topic of the thread?

 

[Kooky]

Anything to add about the topic of the thread?

I just did.

 

[Augustus]

I just did.

"The jilted idealist often mistakes hard-nosed cynicism for maturity, and cold-heartedness for wisdom."

"Jilted idealist"
"hard-nosed cynicism"
"cold-heartedness"

Were you going to put forward any arguments for us to engage with?

There's an OP you can reply to if you like

 

[Kooky]

There's an OP you can reply to if you like

I find little to gain from the OP's child-like faith in unreason.

 

[Augustus]

I find little to gain from the OP's child-like faith in unreason.

What would you say is the best evidence that it is wrong and that humans are, in fact, rational and will thus solve our major problems?

 

[Stevicus]

I wouldn't say that.

More a refutation of the core Western myth of Progress

I wouldn't see it as a myth. Humans may try to rise above their core animal nature, but there's only so far that they can go.

Humans are probably more literate than in previous eras, and they may require reasonable explanations and pretexts for violence or other actions they might deem irrational (or unfair, unjust, etc.).

That may also contribute to a certain faith in reason, as politicians and lawyers specialize in being able to use and manipulate language in such a way as to make the unreasonable and irrational seem "reasonable" in the eyes of the masses. After all, we're not talking about primitive humans grunting and growling and living in a cave.

On the other hand, perhaps we're still pretty much "cavemen" who might dress nicely, speak well, and go to cocktail parties - even if we might be part of a malignant and exploitive socioeconomic and political system. People are convinced that it's "all about freedom" and the higher aspirations of mankind. It makes people feel good about themselves, but ultimately, all they'll really care about is whether they have a warm bed to sleep in, a roof over their heads, food on the table, and other basic necessities of life.

 

[Estro Felino]

In this world there is no justice.
Because the very nature of man prevents real justice from being put into action.

Because of free will. As Schopenhauer said, Wille is the power men are enslaved by.
And since men are slaves of their own will, the common good is difficultly attainable.

But Christians say that justice is doable. Because Jesus said we must pursue the common good every second of our lives.
The common good is attained by desiring people's happiness. Everyone's happiness.

Unfortunately only the just,the altruists can do that.
The wicked cannot.
And the just can be Christians, atheists, any religion.
The wicked and the just cannot live together.

Only in the afterlife there will be justice. That is angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.

 

[Heyo]

Given current events and the hand-wringing about how to end violence and live in harmony with each other, it's worth remembering that this is never going to happen.

Proposing solutions that assume humans can be consistently rational in the pursuit of humanistic goals is folly, and the creation of the least bad world must start from this fact.

We never learn though, as we are not rational.

The best short essay on the subject, by John Gray:

The child-like faith in reason

...If human beings were potentially capable of applying reason in their lives they would show some sign of learning from what they had done wrong in the past, but history and everyday practice show them committing the same follies over and over again. They would alter their beliefs in accordance with facts, but clinging to beliefs in the face of contrary evidence is one of the most powerful and enduring human traits.

Outside of some areas of science, human beings rarely give up their convictions just because they can be shown to be false. No doubt we can become a little more reasonable, at least for a time, in some parts of our lives, but being reasonable means accepting that many human problems aren't actually soluble, and our persistent irrationality is one of these problems. At its best, religion is an antidote against the prevailing type of credulity - in our day, a naive faith in the boundless capacities of the human mind.

The belief in reason that is being promoted today rests on a number of childishly simple ideas. One of the commonest is that history's crimes are mistakes that can be avoided in future as we acquire greater knowledge. But human evil isn't a type of error that can be discarded like an obsolete scientific theory. If history teaches us anything it's that hatred and cruelty are permanent human flaws, which find expression whatever beliefs people may profess...

The refusal to see clear and present danger shows that the idea that human beings base their beliefs on their experience is just a fairy-tale. The opposite is closer to the truth - shaping their perceptions according to what they already believe, human beings block out from their minds anything that disturbs their view of the world. Psychologists who examine this tendency - sometimes called cognitive dissonance - have speculated that refusing to face the truth may confer an evolutionary advantage. Screening out unpleasant or disturbing facts may, in some circumstances, give some people a better chance of survival. But at the same time this tendency leads us all into one folly after another. Many regard science as the supreme embodiment of human reason, but science may yet confirm what history so strongly suggests - irrationality is hard-wired in the human animal.

Certainly unreason can be tempered by the hard-won practices of civilisation, but civilisation will always be a precarious achievement. To believe that human beings can be much improved by rational argument is to assume that they are already reasonable, which is obviously false. The old doctrine of original sin contained a vital truth - there are impulses of irrational destructiveness in every one of us...

There's something deliciously comic in the spectacle of people railing against unreason being themselves so obviously in the grip of a childish delusion... Evidently they need their simple faith in reason - it seems to be the only thing that keeps them going. That doesn't mean we have to take them seriously. The notion that human life could ever be ruled by reason is an exercise in make-believe more far-fetched than any of the stories we were told as children. We'd all be better off if we saw ourselves as we are - intermittently and only ever partly-rational creatures, who never really grow up.

A Point of View: The child-like faith in reason


Thoughts?

A typical false dilemma or black-and-white fallacy.

You know that you can't live forever but even so, you try, and use reason in the process, to survive until tomorrow.
Those of us who use reason won't live forever or have peace forever but we may live longer (and better) and have longer times of peace.

(Note also how I used reason to destroy your unreasoned premise.)

 

[Augustus]

A typical false dilemma or black-and-white fallacy.

You know that you can't live forever but even so, you try, and use reason in the process, to survive until tomorrow.
Those of us who use reason won't live forever or have peace forever but we may live longer (and better) and have longer times of peace.

(Note also how I used reason to destroy your unreasoned premise.)

Note how you misunderstood the point and used a fallacious argument when addressing a topic you find ideologically challenging

Certainly unreason can be tempered by the hard-won practices of civilisation, but civilisation will always be a precarious achievement. To believe that human beings can be much improved by rational argument is to assume that they are already reasonable, which is obviously false...

No doubt we can become a little more reasonable, at least for a time, in some parts of our lives, but being reasonable means accepting that many human problems aren't actually soluble, and our persistent irrationality is one of these problems.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Given current events and the hand-wringing about how to end violence and live in harmony with each other, it's worth remembering that this is never going to happen.

Proposing solutions that assume humans can be consistently rational in the pursuit of humanistic goals is folly, and the creation of the least bad world must start from this fact.

We never learn though, as we are not rational.

The best short essay on the subject, by John Gray:

The child-like faith in reason

...If human beings were potentially capable of applying reason in their lives they would show some sign of learning from what they had done wrong in the past, but history and everyday practice show them committing the same follies over and over again. They would alter their beliefs in accordance with facts, but clinging to beliefs in the face of contrary evidence is one of the most powerful and enduring human traits.

Outside of some areas of science, human beings rarely give up their convictions just because they can be shown to be false. No doubt we can become a little more reasonable, at least for a time, in some parts of our lives, but being reasonable means accepting that many human problems aren't actually soluble, and our persistent irrationality is one of these problems. At its best, religion is an antidote against the prevailing type of credulity - in our day, a naive faith in the boundless capacities of the human mind.

The belief in reason that is being promoted today rests on a number of childishly simple ideas. One of the commonest is that history's crimes are mistakes that can be avoided in future as we acquire greater knowledge. But human evil isn't a type of error that can be discarded like an obsolete scientific theory. If history teaches us anything it's that hatred and cruelty are permanent human flaws, which find expression whatever beliefs people may profess...

The refusal to see clear and present danger shows that the idea that human beings base their beliefs on their experience is just a fairy-tale. The opposite is closer to the truth - shaping their perceptions according to what they already believe, human beings block out from their minds anything that disturbs their view of the world. Psychologists who examine this tendency - sometimes called cognitive dissonance - have speculated that refusing to face the truth may confer an evolutionary advantage. Screening out unpleasant or disturbing facts may, in some circumstances, give some people a better chance of survival. But at the same time this tendency leads us all into one folly after another. Many regard science as the supreme embodiment of human reason, but science may yet confirm what history so strongly suggests - irrationality is hard-wired in the human animal.

Certainly unreason can be tempered by the hard-won practices of civilisation, but civilisation will always be a precarious achievement. To believe that human beings can be much improved by rational argument is to assume that they are already reasonable, which is obviously false. The old doctrine of original sin contained a vital truth - there are impulses of irrational destructiveness in every one of us...

There's something deliciously comic in the spectacle of people railing against unreason being themselves so obviously in the grip of a childish delusion... Evidently they need their simple faith in reason - it seems to be the only thing that keeps them going. That doesn't mean we have to take them seriously. The notion that human life could ever be ruled by reason is an exercise in make-believe more far-fetched than any of the stories we were told as children. We'd all be better off if we saw ourselves as we are - intermittently and only ever partly-rational creatures, who never really grow up.

A Point of View: The child-like faith in reason


Thoughts?

That we should all be like Gray - since he is so perfect? And he seems always to give religions a bye, even when speaking about childishness, when it is often the religious beliefs that promote such. I don't think that those who do value reason necessarily put such on a pedestal over all other considerations either.

 

[Kooky]

What would you say is the best evidence that it is wrong and that humans are, in fact, rational and will thus solve our major problems?

Why do you ask for a rational argument when you do not believe in rational reasoning?

Are you mocking me?

 

[Augustus]

Why do you ask for a rational argument when you do not believe in rational reasoning?

Are you mocking me?

No, you are just missing the point again...

Certainly unreason can be tempered by the hard-won practices of civilisation, but civilisation will always be a precarious achievement. To believe that human beings can be much improved by rational argument is to assume that they are already reasonable, which is obviously false...

No doubt we can become a little more reasonable, at least for a time, in some parts of our lives, but being reasonable means accepting that many human problems aren't actually soluble, and our persistent irrationality is one of these problems.

 

[Kooky]

No, you are just missing the point again...

Certainly unreason can be tempered by the hard-won practices of civilisation, but civilisation will always be a precarious achievement. To believe that human beings can be much improved by rational argument is to assume that they are already reasonable, which is obviously false...

No doubt we can become a little more reasonable, at least for a time, in some parts of our lives, but being reasonable means accepting that many human problems aren't actually soluble, and our persistent irrationality is one of these problems.

i.e. We are irrational and cannot be made to see reason, except we can, a little, but we shouldn't want to improve things too much, except we should, a little.

What vapid nonsense.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not people are "overwhelmed by it", it's that humans are not collectively rational and many problems have no rational solutions.

What problems have no rational solutions?

The difficulties I see....
- People differ on their premises, eg, what is good
to one person is evil to another.
- People are inconsistent regarding reasoning, ie,
they're often irrational.

I favor rational solutions. But I know that your
mileage may vary when applying reason.

 

[Augustus]

i.e. We are irrational and cannot be made to see reason, except we can, a little, but we shouldn't want to improve things too much, except we should, a little.

What vapid nonsense.

For 'vapid nonsense', you are doing a grand job of supporting his argument.

You keep demonstrating you don't understand his argument by making such silly misrepresentations. But, even if you don't understand, by jove, you know he's definitely wrong. And that's for sure. Reason dictates it...

 

[Augustus]

What problems have no rational solutions?

Problems that have no solutions (never mind rational solutions)?

Human irrationality
Violence and warfare
Prejudice and bigotry
Greed and corruption
Poverty
etc.

The difficulties I see....
- People differ on their premises, eg, what is good
to one person is evil to another.
- People are inconsistent regarding reasoning, ie,
they're often irrational.

I favor rational solutions. But I know that your
mileage may vary when applying reason.

Any rational solutions must start from the position that we are not rational, are terrible at predicting the future and generally little understand the consequences of our actions.

They generally require building systems that help mitigate our failings and our lack of control.

But we tend to think we are far more competent than we actually are and have far more control than we actually do.

 

[Revoltingest]

Problems that have no solutions (never mind rational solutions)?

Human irrationality

Saying that there's no rational solution to the problem
of human irrationality seems tautological, ie, there's
a rational solution to problems...as long as there are
rational people to solve them.

Violence and warfare
Prejudice and bigotry
Greed and corruption
Poverty
etc.



Any rational solutions must start from the position that we are not rational, are terrible at predicting the future and generally little understand the consequences of our actions.

They generally require building systems that help mitigate our failings and our lack of control.

But we tend to think we are far more competent than we actually are and have far more control than we actually do.

After my first response, I realize that
I don't understand your theme well
enuf to respond.

 

[Augustus]

Saying that there's no rational solution to the problem
of human irrationality seems tautological, ie, there's
a rational solution to problems...as long as there are
rational people to solve them.

In his memoir My Early Beliefs, Keynes described how he renounced the faith in reason he'd had as a young man in Cambridge. Commenting on his friend the logician and social reformer Bertrand Russell, Keynes observed: "Bertie sustained simultaneously a pair of opinions ludicrously incompatible. He held that human affairs are carried on in a most irrational fashion, but that the remedy was quite simple and easy, since all we had to do was carry them on rationally."

 

[Estro Felino]

What problems have no rational solutions?

The difficulties I see....
- People differ on their premises, eg, what is good
to one person is evil to another.
- People are inconsistent regarding reasoning, ie,
they're often irrational.

I favor rational solutions. But I know that your
mileage may vary when applying reason.

Of course...the hitman considers his job something good, while his victims consider it evil.

Good and evil are not subjective.
They are objective energies which exist regardless of human actions. Regardless of humans.

There are very dangerous post-modern philosophies like the School of Frankfurt that tried to erase the difference between evil and good.
Successfully, in the United States.

But in Europe there is still a sparkle of hope.
There is still that rational reasoning that make people fight for what makes life worth living.