Christ According To The Mormons

[Francine]

The elders made it clear to me that they believe in the plurality of Gods. I had a discussion with them and with one on this board that discussed God the father and his supposed, father. This is polythiesm. Sorry.

I'm not sure what the Mormons are doing in this thread, by denying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods. Are they saying they find Joseph Smith in error and wish to convert to Catholicism?

Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith


Section Six 1843-44, p.370


"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it?"

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T6.html

 

[athanasius]

athanius...we know a hell of a lot more about our teachings and beliefs than you do.

So do you beleive that Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate Gods? Is Jesus a God and the Holy Spirit a God. Or or are they (one Singular) God according to your theology? As I said I had a conversation with someone on this board who is mormon and believes that it is possible that God the Father has a father. would that not be another God? Hence polytheism. I believe even your scholars and prophets admit this(polytheism) in some of their writings.

 

[nutshell]

So do you beleive that Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate Gods? Is Jesus a God and the Holy Spirit a God. Or or are they (one Singular) God according to your theology? As I said I had a conversation with someone on this board who is mormon and believes that it is possible that God the Father has a father. would that not be another God? Hence polytheism. I believe even your scholars and prophets admit this(polytheism) in some of their writings.

This is how conversations work with you:

1. Athanasius makes a claim.

2. Athanasius is corrected by an LDS member.

3. Athanasius ignores the correction.

4. Athanasius restates the original claim.

It's a vicious circle and it's because of step 3.

 

[athanasius]

I'm not sure what the Mormons are doing in this thread, by denying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods. Are they saying they find Joseph Smith in error and wish to convert to Catholicism?

Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith


Section Six 1843-44, p.370


"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it?"

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T6.html

Good points! I also have quotes form some their scholars which say the same thing and even talk about the term polytheism. So I agree with you! Amen!

 

[Katzpur]

Monotheism. Polytheism. Henotheism. Whatever... All nothing more than labels devised by men. Who cares? God knows who I worship. He could care less who you say I worship. Call me any fool thing that floats your boat.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Monotheism. Polytheism. Henotheism. Whatever... All nothing more than labels devised by men. Who cares? God knows who I worship. He could care less who you say I worship. Call me any fool thing that floats your boat.

I second that. All of womens problems begin with men.

-MENstrual cramps

-MENopause

-MENtal Breakdown

-MENtal Illness

:yes:

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Ahh world religions, what a class! Unbiased and academic? All schools have some biases.

She is a professor at the University of Florida & Santa Fe that specializes in religion. I have taken her twice. She has been scrutinized since she began teaching, and no one knows what religion she identifies with. She prides herself on being unbiased, and keeps the class as such. To say she is brilliant would be an understatement... and to say she is biased would be blasphemy! Daggum heretic...

 

[Francine]

I second that. All of womens problems begin with men.

-MENstrual cramps

-MENopause

-MENtal Breakdown

-MENtal Illness

-MENace

-MENingitis

-MENial labor

-fundaMENtalism

 

[Scott C.]

So do you beleive that Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate Gods? Is Jesus a God and the Holy Spirit a God. Or or are they (one Singular) God according to your theology?

Jesus is a God.
The Holy Ghost is a God.
The Father is a God.
So, yes, there are three Gods.
So, in what ways do I believe there is one God? In two ways:

1. God the Father is the directing member of the Godhead and is therefore the only God, meaning the supreme God. (I believe all members of the Godhead are omnipotent, omniscient, etc., but there is an order, and the Father is at the top).

2. The three Gods of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are so perfectly united that we think of them, indeed they declare themselves to be, "one God". In a polytheistic religion, you have multiple gods who serve different purposes, may not be in harmony with each other, and may even compete with each other. The Father. Son, and Holy Ghost want us to understand that such is not the case with them. They act in all things as one, under the direction of the Father.

I appreciate the question but I feel like I'm repeating myself, but maybe in different words, from one thread to another. Do you understand what I believe about both the distinctness and oneness of the three members of the Godhead?

 

[TrueBlue2]

The elders made it clear to me that they believe in the plurality of Gods. I had a discussion with them and with one on this board that discussed God the father and his supposed, father. This is polythiesm. Sorry.

Ahhh, Athanasius, if the Elders said it then it must be absolutely true. It sounds as though you're trying to make this as complicated as the doctrine of the trinity...

The LDS church believes that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct and separate individuals (tritheism according to your own definitions), and that together they make up ONE Godhead. They are of one heart, one mind, and one purpose but they each have different roles in the Godhead. Members of the church only pray to one God (the Father), they recognize Christs most significant role as being the redeemer of mankind through the atonement, and the Holy Ghost plays a significant role as a testifier and a witness for the truth.

Now that's NOT polytheism, and anyone who would have discussed God's father with you was out of line, and was not in harmony with the doctrine of the church. Most Catholics I have spoken to in my life have no idea WHAT they believe. Should I start quoting them as official ambassadors of the Catholic church?

 

[Scott C.]

As I said I had a conversation with someone on this board who is mormon and believes that it is possible that God the Father has a father. would that not be another God? Hence polytheism. I believe even your scholars and prophets admit this(polytheism) in some of their writings.

It is not uncommon for LDS to assume that God the Father must have also had a father. You can keep going backwards in eternity ad infinitum with this assumption. I personally believe that we know very, very little about this. I know the idea is out there in my faith, but I don't discuss it much, as I don't understand it and all of its implications. I believe that I live in an infinite universe. That infinite universe is governed by God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. They are alone as God in this eternity of time and space. That's the way I think about it and not necessarily how other LDS would respond.

 

[Francine]

Jesus is a God.
The Holy Ghost is a God.
The Father is a God.
So, yes, there are three Gods.

BZZT! I'm sorry, that is not correct. The use of the article "a" is what's killing you.

Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and the heavenly Father is God, yet there are not three Gods but one God.

Think of God as H2O, and the Father is ice, the Son is water, and the Holy Spirit is steam. There are three unique personalities, yet they are all facets of one substance.

 

[Scott C.]

BZZT! I'm sorry, that is not correct. The use of the article "a" is what's killing you.

No, that's what liberates me from the false doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Katzpur]

Think of God as H2O, and the Father is ice, the Son is water, and the Holy Spirit is steam. There are three unique personalities, yet they are all facets of one substance.

Sorry, but God as H2O doesn't work for me. When the water boils, the ice melts. When the ice melts, you've got water, but not steam. If all three persons of your Trinity are present at the same time, the H2O analogy doesn't hold water.

 

[Francine]

No, that's what liberates me from the false doctrine of the Trinity.

Okay, that's fine, I'm not on the warpath. Just so we don't mix up concepts and we know that you do not accept the Holy Trinity and Catholicism is the Trinitarian Church par excellence.

 

[Bishka]

Okay, that's fine, I'm not on the warpath..

:areyoucra

I wouldn't have guessed.

 

[Francine]

This is how conversations work with you:

1. Athanasius makes a claim.

2. Athanasius is corrected by an LDS member.

3. Athanasius ignores the correction.

4. Athanasius restates the original claim.

It's a vicious circle and it's because of step 3.

This is how the procedure looks from our end:

1. Athanasius says Mormon doctrine is deficient because it lacks element A.

2. LDS member 1 says, "I'm pretty sure we believe in element A" but provides no corroborating evidence.

3. LDS member 2 provides corroborating evidence that Mormons believe element A, but element A really means element B.

4. Athanasius states original claim. Lather, rinse, repeat!

 

[nutshell]

This is how the procedure looks from our end:

1. Athanasius says Mormon doctrine is deficient because it lacks element A.

2. LDS member 1 says, "I'm pretty sure we believe in element A" but provides no corroborating evidence.

3. LDS member 2 provides corroborating evidence that Mormons believe element A, but element A really means element B.

4. Athanasius states original claim. Lather, rinse, repeat!

So who do we reconcile this dichotomy?

 

[Scott C.]

2. LDS member 1 says, "I'm pretty sure we believe in element A" but provides no corroborating evidence.

If an LDS says "I'm pretty sure we believe..." it probably means they're responding to a question about an obscure part of our faith. There are areas out on the theological ledge where we don't know much if anything. There may be a few statements from past church leaders, but no supporting scriptures and no further discussions from later leaders. We don't necessarily accept such ideas as doctrine. I know that bothers some critics of the church who feel they can't nail us down on what we really believe. But these critics are usually attracted to areas of vague understanding because that is where they can best paint the LDS as having radical ideas. If you came to church a number of times and focused on the basic principles of the Gospel, as taught in our meetings, or especially is you watched one of our General Conference sessions which occur once every six months, you would get a much better feel for our faith. So, as long as you keep asking questions about obscure subjects, you will get obscure answers.

 

[Francine]

So who do we reconcile this dichotomy?

It looks like it was resolved by making Athanasius persona non grata on RF.