sandandfoam
Veteran Member
I'm interested in both and was wondering if anyone here has views on, or experience of either Christian anarchism and Christian pacifism?
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Christian anarchism and Christian pacifism
- Thread starter sandandfoam
- Start date
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
In the states, we often have fringe political groups that emerge from time to time advocating anarchism and also claiming to be Christian-inspired and/or Christian-influenced. I have rarely taken the time to do any formal research on the matter personally. Generally, these groups will only make it on the national radar if their members participate in some particularly notable and/or violent activities, such as blowing up a federal building or such.
As for Christian pacificism, I can honestly say that I have seen even less of this than the fringe violent anarchist types. And sadly, I live in an area that is predominently Christian.
I am sure there are Christians and Christian groups that practice strict pacificism. However, I am surrounded by Christians and none of them in this particular area adhere to what I personally interpret from Christ's teachings as pure pacificism.
As many know, the United States has a history of utilizing war, not just as a last resort in the face of an imminent threat from a foreign power, but also sometimes as a preferred foreign policy tool. It is more often than not the Christians in America practicing their special Americanized version of Christianity that rush to support any and all war efforts. This certainly doesn't apply to all of them, I will admit. However, I still believe it is a tendency on the part of many Christians to view patriotism, even blindly practiced, as a Christian virtue.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Hi Eliot,
As I understand it non-violence is inseperable from Christian anarchism
As I understand it non-violence is inseperable from Christian anarchism
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Then you got me.
Maybe these fringe groups that pop up from time to time aren't really "Christian Anarchists", or at least not strictly by the definition you're utilizing.
Again, though I have done no indepth research, I know there have been Christian-influenced groups, and sometimes groups that openly label themselves "Christian", who advocate the violent overthrow of the government.
As a matter of fact, Timothy McVeigh who participated in the Oklahoma City bombings had ties to such groups. He also admitted to formulizing assassination plans of government officials involved in taking down the Branch Davidians in Waco, Tx.
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sandandfoam
Veteran Member
From the mighty wiki
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
I like what this fella says
Michael Elliott Speaks Online
Michael Elliott Speaks Online
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
I do not practice Christianity, at least not the Americanized version of it. But if I had to claim any philosophical association to a religion or religious character, I would have to say I am drawn most to Christ's messages of peace and nonviolence.
As a matter of fact, I reject any religion outright that provides justifications and/or rationalizations for violence. I do not believe that violence is a product of the divine. I accept Christ's message of nonviolence and respect it. Any rationalizations for violence, whether they be found in Christianity, Islam or any other religion, I believe to be man-inpired, not the product of God.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I do not think Christian anarchism practices non-violence either. There's lots of them here in the Bible belt. Some of them actually advocate using guns to fight the government and take America back, seeing as most are indoctrinated to believe America is a Christian nation. The KuKlux Klan is an example of a Christian anarchist group that formed in America, and used to be quite powerful. People feared the klan, they called them the Invisible Empire.
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Yep . . . this is so true. Believe me, I live smack-dab in the buckle of the Bible Belt. Sadly, these are the so-called Christians I am most familiar with.
Actually, I take that back. Most so-called Christians in this area are not actively violent, at least they don't advocate overthrowing the government. Although, some of the teabaggers are starting to get a bit frisky.
However, most Christians around me practice a materialistic, pro-war, ultra-bigotted, bastardized American Christianity that is quite distant and remote from what I perceive as the true teachings of Christ. But then again, what do I know . . . They're the "Christians", right? I'm just some dope who believes Jesus advocated peace and nonviolence.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Well the Klan still exists here Elliot and in Mississippi
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Thanks guys but you're talking about a different thing to me.
Michael Elliott Speaks Online
Have a look at the link I posted above previously. This fella calls himself a Christian anarchist. He's what I'm talking about.
Michael Elliott Speaks Online
Have a look at the link I posted above previously. This fella calls himself a Christian anarchist. He's what I'm talking about.
LoTrobador
Active Member
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Mr. Elliott's thinking is probably a lot closer to what I perceive as the more true message of Christ.
Though I didn't check out the entire site, I am guessing he is advocating a social system built around the teachings of Christ with no formal system of government. Lack of government is anarchism, right?
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Spot on
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Yes, now we're talking. Very interesting. I'm most interested in that type of thinking. Christian. Vegetarian. Pacifist. Great stuff.
Have you been involved with the Cathars?
LoTrobador
Active Member
I remember you writing about your interest in Cathars, that's why I thought you might like this link.
No, but I've been interested in their history and doctrine, as well as in modern movements which draw upon the Cathar tradition, which is how I've found this Church. Unfortunately, its main website seems to be down.
I'm a Christian pacifist. I see nonviolent action as an important dimension of discipleship. I've written a fair bit on nonviolent Christianity at http :// mattstone.blogs.com/nonviolence
In my experience Christian pacifists tend to come to their position from Christocentric readings of the Bible. I know, we're crazy. For some reason Theocentric readings just don't cut it with us.
Now, to join the discussion, Christian pacifism is not synonymous with Christian anarchism, although I'm aware there is some overlap between the two movements. But, you know, I'm hesitant to even use the word 'anarchist' in this forum after reading your understanding of it. Because it is very different to the self understanding of Christian anarchists I've encountered. The stuff you're talking about above sounds more like Christian terrorism to me, not Christian anarchism. To be a Christian anarchist you've got to be, not only anti-government, but also anti-hierarchy. Hierarchy is the antithesis of anarchy. The militias you're invoking are very hierarchial from what I know, so revolutionary but not anarchistic in the true sense of the word. In particular, KuKlux Klan is NOT an example of a Christian anarchist group precisely because it is very hierarchial (and not particularly Christian I might add).
To outline my own position though, just so its clear: I'm pacifist but not anarchist. I'm not anti government per se, only anti idolization of government.
In my experience Christian pacifists tend to come to their position from Christocentric readings of the Bible. I know, we're crazy. For some reason Theocentric readings just don't cut it with us.
Now, to join the discussion, Christian pacifism is not synonymous with Christian anarchism, although I'm aware there is some overlap between the two movements. But, you know, I'm hesitant to even use the word 'anarchist' in this forum after reading your understanding of it. Because it is very different to the self understanding of Christian anarchists I've encountered. The stuff you're talking about above sounds more like Christian terrorism to me, not Christian anarchism. To be a Christian anarchist you've got to be, not only anti-government, but also anti-hierarchy. Hierarchy is the antithesis of anarchy. The militias you're invoking are very hierarchial from what I know, so revolutionary but not anarchistic in the true sense of the word. In particular, KuKlux Klan is NOT an example of a Christian anarchist group precisely because it is very hierarchial (and not particularly Christian I might add).
To outline my own position though, just so its clear: I'm pacifist but not anarchist. I'm not anti government per se, only anti idolization of government.
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Thesavorofpan
Is not going to save you.
I would love to give you my view point, but I have no idea what your talking about.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Hi Matt, nice to meet you.
My understanding of Christian anarchism is in line with what you've stated, I find it a very attractive ideal.
Non-violence is forming an increasingly important part of my thinking, I must have a look at your blog.