Christian anarchism and Christian pacifism

[Thesavorofpan]

From what I understand from Wikipedia this goes against God in general. God is a god of order he set rules for a purpose. So he set's up government's for a purpose too. As Jesus said "Give unto Cesar what is Cesar." Meaning Jesus was pro-taxes.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

European Christians must be very different then American Christians stephen. Here in America, Christian anarchism has not been a good thing. It's led to groups like the KuKlux Klan, the Aryan Alliance, Storm Front, and the American Evangelical League which supports movements like Jesus Camp, teaching Christian children and teens to fight the government.

 

[sandandfoam]

European Christians must be very different then American Christians stephen. Here in America, Christian anarchism has not been a good thing. It's led to groups like the KuKlux Klan, the Aryan Alliance, Storm Front, and the American Evangelical League which supports movements like Jesus Camp, teaching Christian children and teens to fight the government.

With respect, you are wrong.
This comes from the top of an American Christian Anarchist website

Christian anarchism is the belief that there is only one source of authority to which Christians are ultimately answerable, the authority of God as embodied in the teachings of Jesus. Christian anarchists therefore feel that earthly authority such as government, or indeed the established church do not and should not have power over them. Christian anarchists are pacifists and oppose the use of all physical force, both proactive and reactive. They believe individuals seeking a path to freedom will only be guided by the grace of God if they display compassion for others and turn the other cheek when confronted by violence.

source
Christian anarchism - Criticism

The KKK is nothing to do with anarchism. Quite the opposite:- from their (depressing)website

We stand for family values, the American Constitution, freedom of religion and western culture. We stand for the values of our nations forefathers.

 

[Caladan]

I'm interested in both and was wondering if anyone here has views on, or experience of either Christian anarchism and Christian pacifism?

I think these are modern renovations in order to justify Christianity in the face of modernity and erase Christianity's dark and brutal history.
Jesus tought people to be good citizens, informing them to "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”, Jesus' preached that to Jews who question their citizenship under the Roman authority, and he explained to them that they should be good citizens and not believe that their religious convictions are above the law of the land.
as for 'Christian pacificm', such thing has not existed for centuries, as Christianity has taken the world over by force and has converted billions in a Jihad in the name of the Christian savior.

 

[no-body]

as for 'Christian pacificm', such thing has not existed for centuries, as Christianity has taken the world over by force and has converted billions in a Jihad in the name of the Christian savior.

I haven't seen anyone mention it yet but the Quakers are christian pacifist. I think they get overlooked.

 

[Caladan]

I haven't seen anyone mention it yet but the Quakers are christian pacifist. I think they get overlooked.

The exception does'nt prove the rule, which is that Christianity has spread through conversions, missionaries, conquests, genocides.

 

[sandandfoam]

The exception does'nt prove the rule, which is that Christianity has spread through conversions, missionaries, conquests, genocides.

Mennonites, Cathars?

 

[Caladan]

Mennonites, Cathars?

Again, you two are ignoring history, im really not interested in small groups, im talking about main Christianity, about central mega churches, about the conquests of European Christians all over the world, you cant ignore history, and point the finger at small groups claiming that they are the 'true Christianity'.

 

[sandandfoam]

Again, you two are ignoring history, im really not interested in small groups, im talking about main Christianity, about central mega churches, about the conquests of European Christians all over the world, you cant ignore history, and point the finger at small groups claiming that they are the 'true Christianity'.

True Christian or not, they exemplify what I mean when I designate myself as Christian.

Of course you are free to like or abhor Christians, whatever you consider them to be

 

[Caladan]

True Christian or not, they exemplify what I mean when I designate myself as Christian.

As long as you realize that you are following a specific version of Christianity, and as long as you understand the history of the Christian religion, and the politics of Christianity today.

Of course you are free to like or abhor Christians, whatever you consider them to be

Isn't it a bit defensive? are you saying that I cannot debate religious topics on a forum dedicated to debate religions without being hassled for 'not liking Christians'?, I'm sure your faith is capable of some criticism stephenw.

 

[Caladan]

Here is a vivid account of a Crusader from the 15th of July 1099, when the Christian Crusaders army conquered Jerusalem:

"there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude"

This is a Crusaders army and a campaign that was ordered by the highest Christian authority in history, the main Church, which dominated European politics. this is the history of main Christianity, not the Quakers, not the Mennonites, and not the Cathars.

 

[sandandfoam]

Here is a vivid account of a Crusader from the 15th of July 1099, when the Christian Crusaders army conquered Jerusalem:

This is a Crusaders army and a campaign that was ordered by the highest Christian authority in history, the main Church, which dominated European politics. this is the history of main Christianity, not the Quakers, not the Mennonites, and not the Cathars.

With respect Dan, this is the history of the Roman church.
There is another peaceful, non-violent Christianity, which, admittedly in the minority, has been there since the start.
I don't acknowledge the pope as the highest Christian authority. Many Christians don't.
I acknowledge that there is a history of violence in the name of Christianity.
My view is that those who partook of such violence were at best misguided. My view, and it is not solely a modern view, is that violence is incompatible with Christianity.

 

[Caladan]

With respect Dan, this is the history of the Roman church.

This is the history of main Christianity, the Crusades are not the history of the 'Roman church', it is the history of Europe and the middle east, and the dominating core of Christianity.

There is another peaceful, non-violent Christianity, which, admittedly in the minority, has been there since the start.

Not main political Christianity, and I would like to see sources for a continuous stream of non violent Christianity, I have no doubt that fringe groups have been in existence, however in the Constantinian shift Christianity has turned from the faith of the persecuted to the faith of an empire, and history has changed forever.

I don't acknowledge the pope as the highest Christian authority. Many Christians don't.

That's hardly the point.

I acknowledge that there is a history of violence in the name of Christianity.
My view is that those who partook of such violence were at best misguided. My view, and it is not solely a modern view, is that violence is incompatible with Christianity.

It is indeed your view that they were misguided, but some of these men were formidable people, very politically savvy, experienced and perhaps even pious and honorable. perhaps it is the view of pacifistic Christians which is misguided when we examin the main Christian political line in history.

 

[sandandfoam]

I'm heading out the door so this has to be my last till Monday.
But of course I think you're wrong.
You as an atheist are dictating to me what Christianity is. Makes no sense.
It's like me telling you that the history of atheism is communist dictatorship because in terms of numbers and power Stalin's Russia and Mao's China fill the frame. Of course such a view is nonsensical. Much like defining Christianity by Rome

 

[Caladan]

I'm heading out the door so this has to be my last till Monday.
But of course I think you're wrong.
You as an atheist are dictating to me what Christianity is. Makes no sense.

Many atheists are students of Christianity and Christian history, many of these people understand Christianity better than the believers. I am not claiming to be a leading scholar on Christianity, but I have dedicated some years to study Christian history, in the academy, in travels, in socializing, in political debates etc.
personally I find the line of thought that an 'outsider's' opinion is of no worth to be terrible, Christianity is not a big secret, it is the most common and perhaps most studied religion in history, many strong atheists and people of the academy have mastered the study of Christianity, and they can sure make professional and learned takes on Christianity, better than those of most priests who parrot the Hebrew scriptures in a foreign tongue.

It's like me telling you that the history of atheism is communist dictatorship because in terms of numbers and power Stalin's Russia and Mao's China fill the frame. Of course such a view is nonsensical. Much like defining Christianity by Rome

Sure if you want to go there, lets do it. Stalin and Mao have not executed mass murders against their own people in the name of atheism, they have done so in the name of the communist party, on the other hand Christian knights and soldiers marched into the lands of the east with a fierce religious zeal and conviction, with a declared purpose of liberating their holy sites.

 

[sandandfoam]

I've really got to go now, next week

personally I find the line of thought that an 'outsider's' opinion is of no worth to be terrible, Christianity is not a big secret, it is the most common and perhaps most studied religion in history, many strong atheists and people of the academy have mastered the study of Christianity, and they can sure make professional and learned takes on Christianity, better than those of most priests who parrot the Hebrew scriptures in a foreign tongue.

Not my point. You're arguing with your Christianity. Not mine. You can say I'm not a Christian if you want but you are arguing with a religion that is not mine.

Sure if you want to go there, lets do it. Stalin and Mao have not executed mass murders against their own people in the name of atheism, they have done so in the name of the communist party, on the other hand Christian knights and soldiers marched into the lands of the east with a fierce religious zeal and conviction, with a declared purpose of liberating their holy sites.

LOL. The title Christian does seem to put you in fight mode.
Why go there? You are arguing with yourself again. I have already agreed in my previous post that such an argument would be nonsensical. I've already agreed with you

 

[sandandfoam]

It is worth noting that those who considered themselves Good Christians were also on the receiving end of a Crusade, no?

 

[Caladan]

I've really got to go now, next week

Have a pleasent weekend stephen, and thanks for your time.

Not my point. You're arguing with your Christianity. Not mine. You can say I'm not a Christian if you want but you are arguing with a religion that is not mine.

I am argueing about Christianity, you have created a thread in the debate section about Christianity, pacificsm, and anarchism and I am debating these very issues. I have specfically said that you should be aware that you are following your own Christianity.

 

[Caladan]

It is worth noting that those who considered themselves Good Christians were also on the receiving end of a Crusade, no?

I dont know whether they were good Christians, I know that they were peasants and subjects in a feudal system, but which Christians are you talking about specifically?

 

[A-ManESL]

I am highly surprised that no one has mentioned Leo Tolstoy. Didnt he develop initial Christian anarchism and pacifism thought?