Christian - Baptism

[Linus]

I was under the impression that under the catholic teaching of "pabtism of desire" was that if you want to be baptized, but are unable to for some reason, it is the equivalent of actually doing it (in other words they will be saved when they die anyway). Is this not the case?

The only thing we can say for sure about baptism is that if we do it and live faithfully, we will be saved. That doesn't give us any room to say yes or no about someone in that kind of a scenario. If someone wants to be baptized but cannot... I don't know. I would imagine that the answer would be that no, they will not be saved. But, like I said before, that's not my call to make.

 

[DirtyHarry]

All these responses were good and I admit I will have to consider them, but I was never given any Biblical proof to "baptism of desire" or "baptism of blood," save for the thief on the cross. However, you have to admit that the circumstances surrounding the thief on the cross were unique, and I don't believe that this situation can be applied to everyday life. I do not it is a huge leap to think of baptism as a requirement when we are commanded to be baptised in Acts 2:38 ..."repent and be baptised everyone of you for the forgiveness of sins..."

Just some thoughts...

 

[Scuba Pete]

You are wise DH.

Maybe it wasn't peanut butter after all!

 

[Scott1]

Linus and DH,

I just wanted to give you something to think about....

DH, if it makes your faith stronger to think that every non-baptized person goes to hell, then so be it.... who am I to judge?

Peace,
Scott

 

[precentor]

This question comes out of an other forum. Is baptism necessary for salvation? Or is it just a demonstration of your faith? What do you think?

I'd be wary of using words such as "necessary" because I believe that God's mercy and grace will often suffice where human beings fail. I believe baptism is a sacrament, and therefore an agent of grace, and that it is a normative component of salvation. But as another forum member mentioned above, a deathbed conversion without baptism won't necessarily be any less effective.

 

[precentor]

In Islam they do similar. I believe that's where the Christians got it. Before all the protestant churches was Rome. From the Reformation onwards then to the americas came the many different protestant churches. Again Judaism,then Islam................

Neat trick of Islam's, to influence Christianity 400 years before Mohammed!

 

[Pilgrim of this Reality]

There is a lot of references by people about deathbed conversions. Where in the New Testament can an example be found?

 

[No*s]

There is a lot of references by people about deathbed conversions. Where in the New Testament can an example be found?

It isn't. I don't think it's relevant, though. The NT itself doesn't portray it as some mechanical process. Why should we?

 

[Scuba Pete]

The NT itself doesn't portray it as some mechanical process.

Nor does it portray basptism as a "work", though some would have you believe it as such.

Make no bones about it. God (in his INFINITE wisdom) has asked us (with our finite wisdom) to do something that we simply can't comprehend. Consequently, we rail against it and pronounce it "not neccesary" due to our arrogance in not being able to comprehend it. All God is looking for is a quiet obedience to a very simple (and do-able) request. How can you say that you will lay down your life for Jesus, when you are arguing with his scripture about a simple act of faith? Like Peter before Jesus' crucifiction, I think there are quite a few deluded individuals.

 

[No*s]

Nor does it portray basptism as a "work", though some would have you believe it as such.

Make no bones about it. God (in his INFINITE wisdom) has asked us (with our finite wisdom) to do something that we simply can't comprehend. Consequently, we rail against it and pronounce it "not neccesary" due to our arrogance in not being able to comprehend it. All God is looking for is a quiet obedience to a very simple (and do-able) request. How can you say that you will lay down your life for Jesus, when you are arguing with his scripture about a simple act of faith? Like Peter before Jesus' crucifiction, I think there are quite a few deluded individuals.

There's nothing in my posts about baptism being "unneccessary." I am simply asserting salvation isn't mechanistic and like a cookie-cutter. As such, I have no problem believing that the man who begins believing on his death bed can hope in God. I also have equal faith that the man who shakes his fist at God and refuses baptism may be preparing his fate.

I'm simply saying that we can't know the fate of anybody, and God saves who He will, and He has done so without baptism in the NT and this same NT makes it a requirement...that alone should warn us against making hard rules on this issue. The patristic writers hold similar divergences of opinion.

 

[Scuba Pete]

There's nothing in my posts about

I am sorry if it implied that I was singling you out. That was not my intent. I was merely trying to debunk the most popular reason for discounting the neccesity of baptism for salvation.

that we can't know the fate of anybody,

Wiser words were never spoken.

 

[No*s]

Ah, yes. I see. Well, that is certainly well grounded. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[rmarchy]

Water baptism and miraculous signs both belong to the so-called "great commission" (Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:16-18, Acts 1:8), yet, strangely, many pastors who would excommunicate any of their members for speaking in tongues or seeking to perform miracles, nevertheless cling tenaciously to the practice of water baptism. Surely it would seem that if the "great commission" is for our obedience today, the Pentecostalists are more consistent than the great majority of their Fundamentalist brethren in this matter. Here, then, let us point out briefly the dispensational significance of water baptism and the glory of the "one baptism" of the present dispensation.​

In all the division and confusion which has prevailed in the church over the subject of baptism, the primary question at issue has been almost completely overlooked. That question is not whether water baptism is found in the Scriptures, nor who should be baptized, nor how. The first question which concerns us is: should we practice water baptism now? Is it included in God's program for the present dispensation?If, instead of becoming wrought up over secondary questions, the spiritual leaders of the past centuries had first asked themselves this basic question, much discord and heartache could have been avoided.

WATER BAPTISM AND THE
MESSIANIC KINGDOM


We have already seen that the opening message of the New Testament Scriptures is "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt. 3:2). This message was first proclaimed to Israel by John the Baptist and was later taken up by our Lord (Matt. 4:17) and His twelve apostles (Matt. 10:5-7). The proclamation of this message and its results are what the "Four Gospels" record.

The fact that this kingdom was now proclaimed "at hand" indicates that it had been predicted and expected, and so it had.

Under the Old Covenant God had promised:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine:

"And ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and AN HOLY NATION. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel" (Ex. 19:5,6).

Until they did obey God's voice indeed, only certain people in Israel were set apart as priests, but in connection with the coming of Messiah and the conversion of all Israel, God later promised that they would indeed become a whole nation of priests through whom the Gentiles should approach God:

"BUT YE SHALL BE NAMED THE PRIESTS OF THE LORD: MEN SHALL CALL YOU THE MINISTERS OF OUR GOD . . ." (Isa. 61:6).

The first rite to be performed at the induction of the priest into his office was his washing with water (Ex. 29:4). This spoke of his need of cleansing before approaching the presence of God. Hence, as John proclaimed the kingdom at hand, in which all Israel should stand before God as priests, he demanded repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4).

That John's baptism was associated with the manifestation of Christ to Israel cannot be denied, for John himself said:

"AND I KNEW HIM NOT: BUT THAT HE SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST TO ISRAEL, THEREFORE AM I COME BAPTIZING WITH WATER" (John 1:31).

Mark well, John baptized the people "for the remission of sins." Nor was this changed after the resurrection of Christ, for at Pentecost Peter offered Christ's return and the times of refreshing to Israel, again calling upon them to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38).This was in strict obedience to the commission given to him by the risen Lord, in which it was expressly stated that "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16).

As with miraculous signs, the departure from this program came with Israel's rejection of her risen Messiah and the raising up of Paul to proclaim the gospel of the grace of God. And, like miraculous signs, this part of the program was not discontinued all at once. Even after the raising up of Paul God still continued for some time to stretch forth His hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people (Rom. 10:21). The departure, however, did not begin until after Saul's conversion. Then Peter was sent to the first Gentile family only to have his sermon interrupted while, to the astonishment of His companions, these Gentiles were saved and received the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism (Acts 10:44-46). True Peter then baptized them (Acts 10:47) to keep the books straight, as it were, but the departure from the program of the "great commission" is clear. The practice of water baptism continued for some time after this, while Christ was still being made manifest to Israel.

PAUL AND THE "ONE BAPTISM"


But in the ministry of Paul, with which the rest of Acts is concerned, water baptism is never required for the remission of sins. Obviously, then, another commission was replacing that given to the eleven before our Lord's ascension.
It is significant that while Paul did baptize some,and mentions this in his first letter to the Corinthians, he states that he is glad he has baptized so few of them, adding:

"FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE, BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL: NOT WITH WISDOM OF WORDS, LEST THE CROSS OF CHRIST SHOULD BE MADE OF NONE EFFECT.

"FOR THE PREACHING OF THE CROSS IS TO THEM THAT PERISH FOOLISHNESS; BUT UNTO US WHICH ARE SAVED IT IS THE POWER OF GOD" (I Cor. 1:17,18).

It is also significant that Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles and minister of the body of Christ NEVER ONCE, IN ANY OF HIS LETTERS, COMMANDS OR EVEN EXHORTS US TO BE BAPTIZED WITH WATER.

In his later letters, written after the setting aside of Israel, he states emphatically that there is now but "ONE BAPTISM" (Eph. 4:5). This baptism is the operation of the Holy Spirit whereby believers are made one with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-4, Gal. 3:26,27, Col. 2:9-12), and so are also made members of "one body," the "body of Christ" (I Cor. 12:13,27, Gal. 3:26-28).

If believers, especially spiritual leaders, better understood the "one baptism" by which the "one Spirit" baptizes (in the Greek baptize means "to be placed into", nothing more) us into "one body," our unity in Christ would be more fully enjoyed. Indeed, we are exhorted to endeavor to "keep" or observe the unity that the Spirit has made, remembering that there is but "one body . . . one Spirit . . . one hope . . . one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father . . ." (Eph. 4:3-6). One thing is certain: the student who is willing to put aside preconceived notions and human traditions, and search the Scriptures concerning this "one baptism" with an open mind, sits down to a veritable feast of spiritual good things.


For more info please read "Things That Differ" by C. R. Stam
It should dispell 99% of the confusion you have. You can read the whole book here...

http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm

 

[Baerly]

Where are you reading that from?

When you ask Jesus into your life, ask for forgiveness, He forgives you from your sin.

Would you please show me in the bible where it says that because I cannot find it.
I know all denominations teach this but it is not found in the bible I read.-- in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

Let's look at the story of Naaman

II Kings 5:1 Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the LORD had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy. 2 Now bands from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman's wife. 3 She said to her mistress, "If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy." 4 Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said. 5 "By all means, go," the king of Aram replied. "I will send a letter to the king of Israel." So Naaman left, taking with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold and ten sets of clothing. 6 The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: "With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy." 7 As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, "Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!" 8 When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: "Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel." 9 So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha's house. 10 Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, "Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed." 11 But Naaman went away angry and said, "I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn't I wash in them and be cleansed?" So he turned and went off in a rage. 13 Naaman's servants went to him and said, "My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, `Wash and be cleansed'!" 14 So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.

So what can we learn about baptism from this? Are there any similarities?

First, we can see that he was used by God. Was he still sick? Oh yes. God can work through anyone.

Second, he had to believe in someone that was WAY below his status. A slave girl.

Third, he had to act on faith just to see if he could be helped. He travelled a long way to get to Elisha.

Fourth, he came with preconceptions.
a) He thought he could buy salvation.
b) He expected a MIGHTY miracle
c) He even had a better plan (and cleaner water!)
d) That he was more important than God's servant.
e) We don't like simple. We want things to be COMPLICATED.

Fifth, not all of those who are supposed to believe do. The King of Israel was in a tizzy over this. But Elisha KNEW the power of God and was way cool with the whole thing.

Sixth listen to God's servants. Even the servants of his servants. Even little slave girls. Truth is truth and no person can add to or subtract from it.

Humility begets obedience. Do you think Naaman was clean after the 6th dip in the river? Nope, if he had slipped and drowned after that sixth dip, he would have died a leper! But what do the exceptions do for us? They merely give us an "out" for our disobedience. Somehow, I don't think God would let the guy driving across town to get baptised, to be killed.

A preacher was asked once what ! Peter 3:21 really meant.

"Peanut Butter!" was his reply?

"How in the world do you get "Peanut Butter" out of that???"

"Does it matter? If I had said water, would you have believed me any more?"

Kind of reminds me of that sign: "My mind is made up, please don't confuse me with the facts (scriptures)."

My friend I am proud of you. But I thought you said you were not under law? To be baptized to be saved is living under the N.T.LAW (1Peter 3:21). You want your cake and you want to eat it too? in love Baerly

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Water baptism is absolutely necessary if someone wishes to be saved.

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Acts 22:16

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

Then Peter said to them, "Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

Those are just a few verses, but it seems pretty clear to me that we must be baptized, and that baptism washes away sins.

 

[Baerly]

Believe + Baptism = Salvation (Mark 16:16) -- - Please tell me what comes between believe and salvation in this verse?

Baptized Into Christ -----Gal.3:27

Water Baptism saves --- 1Peter 3:21

Repent + Be Converted = Blotting out sins (Acts 3:19)
Repent + Be Baptized = Remission of sins (Acts 2:38)

These two verses harmonize.Being converted and baptism are both one in the same thing.

How do we know that this is refering to water baptism? Let us go to (Acts 8) and see if we can understand this any better. In (Acts 8:5) Philip went down and preached JESUS to the city of Samaria. Notice please in (Acts 8:12)When the people believed the things Philip preached concerning the kingdom of God... They were baptized. Question: How did they know about baptism? All Philip preached to them was Jesus. This proves to preach Jesus one must preach water baptism in (Acts 8).

Now let us go to(Acts 8:35) philip preached the same message to the Ethiopian eunich.He preached to him JESUS. The very next verse says the eunich notices CERTAIN water and says, See here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? Certain water meant enough water to meet there needs.(vs 37) Philip tells him if he believes thou mayest.The eunich makes the great confession that Jesus is the son of God. (vs 38) says they BOTH went down into the water Philip and the eunich and he baptized him.(vs 39) says when they were come up out of the water......the eunich went on his way rejoicing.So there was enough water for both of them to go down into and come up out of. That is the example for everyone who wants to become a christian.Please notice this example of the conversion of the Ethiopian eunich included water baptism. Please also notice that he was not happy until he was baptized.The Holy Spirit has this recorded for us so people will know when the point comes that they can be happy about their conversion to christianity. That is bible doctrine and we are not to teach no other doctrine according to (1Tim.1:3).Every conversion since the day of Pentecost was done in the same manner. Let us go to (Acts 22:16) to find out why the Ethiopian eunich was so happy when he was baptized in water. In (Acts 22:16) Saul was told four things to do 1. Arise - 2. Be Baptized - 3. wash away your sins 4. Calling On the name of the Lord . Please notice the washing away of Sauls sins did not happen till he was baptized in water just as the Ethiopian eunich and the Samaritans in (Acts 8). We know we cannot have any part with God until our sins are washed away because (Isaiah 59:1,2) says that our sins have separated us from God. These scriptures prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that water baptism is required for salvation. It is the plan of God not man. If you want to get mad at anyone go to God and tell him how upset you are that water baptism is included in the plan of salvation. - in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

About the Thief on the Cross

From: thepreachersfiles.com
March 14, 2006 by David Hersey - Granby church of Christ
Those who teach the doctrine of salvation by faith only frequently point to the thief on the cross that appealed to Jesus in his last moments. They claim that the thief was saved by faith without the need of being baptized or of any other work of righteousness. They go on to contend that since the thief was never baptized and that since he was promised a place in paradise that New Testament Christians likewise can be saved by faith alone.
Those who claim this fail to realize that there is not one verse of scripture that supports the assumption that the thief was not baptized. The thief knew who Jesus was and that He was innocent, (Luke 23:41). The thief appealed to Jesus calling Him "Lord" and the thief knew Jesus was coming into a kingdom that belonged to Him, (Luke 23:42). This man knew that even though he and Jesus were going to die, there was something beyond the cross for both of them. That is a lot of information for someone who has not been baptized to possess. Great multitudes of people had been taught and baptized prior to Jesus' crucifixion, (Mark 1:4-5; Luke 3:21). It is entirely possible this man had been baptized prior this event.
Scripture teaches that when Jesus died on the cross His new covenant or testament came into force, (Hebrews 9:15-17). Jesus had not yet died on the cross when the thief made his appeal. This was not the first time Jesus forgave the sins of others before He died. In Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:10 and Luke 5:24 we read of Jesus demonstrating His power on earth to forgive sins. This was the account of the man with the palsy who had been let down through a hole in the roof into the presence of Jesus. Jesus not only healed this man but He forgave his sins as well. Hanging on the cross, moments from death, Jesus still had the same power to save a lost individual who had appealed to Him. The thief on the cross, having been saved before Jesus died, was saved under the old covenant, not the new. It is not possible for anybody today to be saved before Jesus died on the cross.
Was the thief really saved by faith only? One must ask, would he have been saved if he had never made his appeal to Jesus? Would faith alone in his heart have been enough without anything else? In Luke 23:40 the thief openly rebuked his counterpart saying "Dost not thou fear God"? This man knew who God was and knew he was to be feared more than dying on that cross. That is a demonstration of faith in God. In verse 41 the thief acknowledged that they were receiving their just rewards for their deeds and he further proclaimed that Jesus was innocent. Repentance is contrition of heart that manifests itself in a change of action. The thief knew he was condemned, knew he was at fault and he knew there were consequences beyond the death that awaited him. This man regretted his former actions and this regret compelled him to change the way he was acting towards Jesus. Matthew 27:44 records that, at first, both of them were reviling Jesus. This man repented and Jesus accepted this mans repentance after having earlier been publicly reviled by him. The significance of this cannot be overstated. One of the terms of salvation today is repentance. Luke recorded the words of Jesus in chapter 13:3 (Luke 13:3) saying "unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Would the thief have been saved without his repentance?
In Luke 23:42 the thief made an appeal directly to Jesus addressing him as "Lord." In Luke 12:8 we see Jesus saying "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God". This man knew who Jesus was and addressed him as Lord before everyone present including the other thief. The thief also asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom. This man was appealing to Jesus, a condemned man, hanging naked on a cross, gasping out his last breaths on this earth, for help. He recognized the hopeless lost state he was in and he turned to the only source of help alive on earth and found it. He found mercy just like the publican who begged for it in Luke 18:3. Can you imagine how comforting those words Jesus spoke to him at that time must have been? "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
The thief on the cross repented, he acknowledged Jesus as Lord and asked for mercy. Was he really saved by faith only? Jesus taught in Matthew 7:21, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven". Jesus further taught that those who do His will are building their houses on a foundation of rock which can not be shaken, (Luke 6:47-48). The thief on the cross knew who Jesus was while he was hanging with him at Calvary. But he wasn't saved until after he gave the proper response to his faith.

 

[Scuba Pete]

My friend I am proud of you. But I thought you said you were not under law? To be baptized to be saved is living under the N.T.LAW (1Peter 3:21). You want your cake and you want to eat it too? in love Baerly

To be baptised is to die and to be FREE of the law. I am free, free, free! My Lord has set me free. The only law I obey is freedom: Free to Love and Free to Serve.

 

[Baerly]

To be baptised is to die and to be FREE of the law. I am free, free, free! My Lord has set me free. The only law I obey is freedom: Free to Love and Free to Serve.

If you will please explain to me what (2 Peter 2:21) teaches. You continue to say christians are not under law, BUT this verse teaches that those who TURN FROM THE COMMANDMENTS (N.T.Commandments) of Jesus will be lost
(John 14:15,21).To prove we are not under law (2 Peter 2:21) must harmonize with your idea that we are not under law.

Not only that but you also have a problem with all the times the bible uses the words (MUST or ought) in the N.T. --- Many times were taught through the scriptures that christians have a (moral necessity)or one MUST do certain things to be pleasing to Jesus (1Thess.4:1).We do that by obedience to the N.T.LAW (Heb.5:8,9).

I did not say be perfect.Within the N.T.Law God has a provision when we sin we can be forgiven (1John 1:6-9). This is refering to how Simon repented and made things right with God in (Acts 8:22). Gal.6:2) continues to teach we are to fulfill the LAW OF CHRIST by being obedient (the New Testament) (Heb.5:8,9).

Another note: to be baptized is to bury the dead ole person we used to be and be raised out of the water to be FREE FROM SIN, according to (Rom.6:6-4 ; 18).That scripture nowhere says we are free from law.

It is by the blood of Jesus (Eph.1:7)and at the point of water Baptism that we are FREE FROM SIN according to (ROM.6:3,4,18) (Acts 22:16) (Acts 2:38) (Acts 3:19) (Acts 8:35-38) (Titus 3:5) (Col.2:12) (1Peter 3:21).

We can know exactly what truth is according to the bible. (1John 2:21) says I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because you know it,and that no lie is of the truth. We can know what they knew if we will but read and study the bible with a good and honest heaert (Eph.3:3,4) (Luke 8:15).-in love Baerly