Christian Concepts

[Neo Deist]

I'd like to discuss some common concepts that are taught in various aspects of Christianity. I understand that not every denomination agrees with this list, but after spending 30 years as a Baptist and visiting other churches, I have heard them multiple times from different sources. I am not looking to flame anyone, but rather have an intelligent conversation. I will provide my thoughts and beliefs after each concept, based on my deistic view.

1. God is omnipotent (all powerful).

I agree with this concept. God is the creator of the universe and everything in it. It also means that God has the power to uncreate. More on this later.

2. Jesus died for our sins.

I disagree with this. Jesus died as a result of being a "rabble rouser." The Roman Governor Pilate ordered his execution, and made an example out of him. The story got distorted decades later, and the pagan concept of a blood sacrifice took root. Besides, the OT is full of verses that contradict dying for another's sins. However, early Christians wanted to make a martyr out of Jesus, so "dying for our sins" became a central theme.

3. Satan is the devil, is a fallen angel, and works against God.

First off, the entire Satan thing is vastly misunderstood. Let's break this down into sub-sections.

A. Satan is a Hebrew term, and in English it means "adversary." Everywhere in the OT Hebrew that Satan appears, it is preceded by 'the' which means the correct term would be "the satan" or more accurately "the adversary." It is a title, not a name. If you are going to translate the Hebrew 'Yeshua' into Jesus, so should you also translate the Hebrew 'satan' into adversary.

B. No where does the Bible actually say that Satan is a fallen angel. The verse of Luke 10:18 does in certain translations, but that is because the term Satan is used incorrectly. If you remember from point A, the correct term in English is "the adversary," so the verse should read "I saw 'the adversary' fall like lightning from heaven."

C. Satan can't do anything without God's permission. This is true, and if you look at the Book of Job, it is clearly evident. God brings Job up to Satan for testing; Satan did not go out and find Job. Furthermore, God set the rules for the tests and Satan had no choice but to obey. Lastly, God is omnipotent (remember #1 above) so if Satan were truly this evil, fallen angel, total nemesis to God...couldn't God just snap His fingers and uncreate Satan, thus saving a bunch of red tape?

4. Christians go to Heaven when they die.

I disagree with this, and so does the Bible. No where does the Bible ever say this. Let's break this one down also.

A. Heaven has three different meanings, depending on the context.
- the dwelling place of God
- the cosmos/universe
- the sky

The problem is that many translations lump all the meanings into one, and use the term incorrectly.

B. Revelation 20 tells us that all the dead are raised up from the grave (hades) and the sea, and are judged. Those not passing judgment are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed, not tormented eternally.

Revelation 21 clearly tells us that the righteous go on to paradise on new earth, not heaven.

C. People will resort to the verse of Luke 23:43 as proof of going to heaven. Not so fast. They fail to realize that Koine Greek, which the NT was written in, does not contain punctuation marks. The placement of the comma is traditionally as follows:

"Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." [present tense]

However, that comma placement is a guess, and it could also go here:

"Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." [future tense]

Not to mention Jesus says paradise, not heaven.

5. God controls everything, and everything happens for a reason.

I disagree with this. I believe in the free will of living beings. We make our own choices and deal with the consequences; good or bad.

A. If God controlled everything, then that means every sickness, every death, every murder, every rape, every calamity that happens to you...is God's fault. He caused it because He controlled it. He made it happen. That is not my idea of a loving, benevolent deity.

B. Free will lets God off the hook and puts the blame on either a choice that was made, or natural law (tornado, earthquake). Bad things happen to good people because some people make bad choices and commit wicked acts.


Please share your thoughts/opinions.

 

[Burl]

The idea that God is benevolent and loving coincides with Jesus dying for our sins if we accept the Sons of Men as moral examples by which we can be judged.

 

[Sees]

The idea that God is benevolent and loving coincides with Jesus dying for our sins if we accept the Sons of Men as moral examples by which we can be judged.

Can you explain what that means?

 

[Neo Deist]

The idea that God is benevolent and loving coincides with Jesus dying for our sins if we accept the Sons of Men as moral examples by which we can be judged.

You will have to elaborate on this further, because a benevolent God that causes sin, suffering, and death that could just otherwise snap His divine fingers and make the world a happy, peaceful place, is obviously MIA.

By that I mean God apparently has a "hands off" approach and just lets nature take its course. Besides, with the billions upon billions of other planets in the universe, what kind of existence would it be for Jesus to be born on every inhabited planet just to die repeatedly (if that is what is required for atonement)?

Lastly, why would God need to create Himself in the flesh in order to have atonement? It seems to me that the omnipotent creator could just say "NO MORE SIN" and it would be so. No need for all the theatrics.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'd like to discuss some common concepts that are taught in various aspects of Christianity. I understand that not every denomination agrees with this list, but after spending 30 years as a Baptist and visiting other churches, I have heard them multiple times from different sources. I am not looking to flame anyone, but rather have an intelligent conversation. I will provide my thoughts and beliefs after each concept, based on my deistic view.

1. God is omnipotent (all powerful).

I agree with this concept. God is the creator of the universe and everything in it. It also means that God has the power to uncreate. More on this later.

2. Jesus died for our sins.

I disagree with this. Jesus died as a result of being a "rabble rouser." The Roman Governor Pilate ordered his execution, and made an example out of him. The story got distorted decades later, and the pagan concept of a blood sacrifice took root. Besides, the OT is full of verses that contradict dying for another's sins. However, early Christians wanted to make a martyr out of Jesus, so "dying for our sins" became a central theme.

3. Satan is the devil, is a fallen angel, and works against God.

First off, the entire Satan thing is vastly misunderstood. Let's break this down into sub-sections.

A. Satan is a Hebrew term, and in English it means "adversary." Everywhere in the OT Hebrew that Satan appears, it is preceded by 'the' which means the correct term would be "the satan" or more accurately "the adversary." It is a title, not a name. If you are going to translate the Hebrew 'Yeshua' into Jesus, so should you also translate the Hebrew 'satan' into adversary.

B. No where does the Bible actually say that Satan is a fallen angel. The verse of Luke 10:18 does in certain translations, but that is because the term Satan is used incorrectly. If you remember from point A, the correct term in English is "the adversary," so the verse should read "I saw 'the adversary' fall like lightning from heaven."

C. Satan can't do anything without God's permission. This is true, and if you look at the Book of Job, it is clearly evident. God brings Job up to Satan for testing; Satan did not go out and find Job. Furthermore, God set the rules for the tests and Satan had no choice but to obey. Lastly, God is omnipotent (remember #1 above) so if Satan were truly this evil, fallen angel, total nemesis to God...couldn't God just snap His fingers and uncreate Satan, thus saving a bunch of red tape?

4. Christians go to Heaven when they die.

I disagree with this, and so does the Bible. No where does the Bible ever say this. Let's break this one down also.

A. Heaven has three different meanings, depending on the context.
- the dwelling place of God
- the cosmos/universe
- the sky

The problem is that many translations lump all the meanings into one, and use the term incorrectly.

B. Revelation 20 tells us that all the dead are raised up from the grave (hades) and the sea, and are judged. Those not passing judgment are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed, not tormented eternally.

Revelation 21 clearly tells us that the righteous go on to paradise on new earth, not heaven.

C. People will resort to the verse of Luke 23:43 as proof of going to heaven. Not so fast. They fail to realize that Koine Greek, which the NT was written in, does not contain punctuation marks. The placement of the comma is traditionally as follows:

"Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." [present tense]

However, that comma placement is a guess, and it could also go here:

"Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." [future tense]

Not to mention Jesus says paradise, not heaven.

5. God controls everything, and everything happens for a reason.

I disagree with this. I believe in the free will of living beings. We make our own choices and deal with the consequences; good or bad.

A. If God controlled everything, then that means every sickness, every death, every murder, every rape, every calamity that happens to you...is God's fault. He caused it because He controlled it. He made it happen. That is not my idea of a loving, benevolent deity.

B. Free will lets God off the hook and puts the blame on either a choice that was made, or natural law (tornado, earthquake). Bad things happen to good people because some people make bad choices and commit wicked acts.


Please share your thoughts/opinions.

Well...you and I agree on many things. That's because I've chosen my Pelagian views after a rational analysis of the Holy Scriptures, and like you, I rely on logic, instead of blind faith.
- Radical Pelagianism underlines the absolute centrality of free will. God is not omnipotent because He is not able to violate people's free will, and He made a free nature (He cannot prevent earthquakes, in order to save human lives).
- As for Jesus's death, I agree with you. The concept of atonement is really devilish. My God would never demand His son's blood to save mankind from sin, also because: 1) Jesus didn't commit suicide, but He was unjustly executed, and He was hiding Himself (so He certainly didn't want to be arrested and tried). 2) Sin is a choice, so salvation is earned through free will. Jesus came just to teach us how to become like Him.
- I believe free will has implied the choice of divine entities (you can call them angels) to separate themselves from God. Probably out of pride or envy. Evil is the product of self-centrism, the removal of unity and the Oneness with God.
- Heaven and Hell are very difficult concepts, so I dare not give definitive definitions.

 

[psychoslice]

Christian concepts........yes there just concepts.

 

[Deeje]

I'd like to discuss some common concepts that are taught in various aspects of Christianity. I understand that not every denomination agrees with this list, but after spending 30 years as a Baptist and visiting other churches, I have heard them multiple times from different sources. I am not looking to flame anyone, but rather have an intelligent conversation. I will provide my thoughts and beliefs after each concept, based on my deistic view.

1. God is omnipotent (all powerful).

I agree with this concept. God is the creator of the universe and everything in it. It also means that God has the power to uncreate. More on this later.

God certainly has the power to do whatever pleases him.... but "uncreate"?

2. Jesus died for our sins.

I disagree with this. Jesus died as a result of being a "rabble rouser." The Roman Governor Pilate ordered his execution, and made an example out of him. The story got distorted decades later, and the pagan concept of a blood sacrifice took root. Besides, the OT is full of verses that contradict dying for another's sins. However, early Christians wanted to make a martyr out of Jesus, so "dying for our sins" became a central theme.

Jesus was not a "rabble rouser" at all, but one sent by God to re-establish true worship in a system that was theocratically broken. The religious leaders hated him because he exposed them for the religious hypocrites that they were. (Matthew 23:13-33)
Pilate found no fault in him and certainly no crime deserving of execution. Only when the Jews threatened to report him to Caesar for treason did he value his own life more than that of the innocent man brought before him. Washing his hands of the whole affair Pilate handed Jesus over to be flogged just to appease the crowd who were crying out for his blood. (Matthew 27:25) Pilate wanted to release him.

 

[Deeje]

3. Satan is the devil, is a fallen angel, and works against God.

First off, the entire Satan thing is vastly misunderstood. Let's break this down into sub-sections.

A. Satan is a Hebrew term, and in English it means "adversary." Everywhere in the OT Hebrew that Satan appears, it is preceded by 'the' which means the correct term would be "the satan" or more accurately "the adversary." It is a title, not a name. If you are going to translate the Hebrew 'Yeshua' into Jesus, so should you also translate the Hebrew 'satan' into adversary.

Correct. God's "adversary" was first revealed in Genesis as a "serpent" who deceived the woman into disobedience. She then influenced her husband (his intended target) and accomplished his aim of alienating the humans from their God. Now he could be a god to them, taking worship for himself by the many religious systems he established in opposition to the true God after the flood. He is spoken about again in the book of Job 1:6; 2:1 as taking his place before God in the presence of other angels.
But he is clearly identified in Revelation 12:7-9...."And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." (NASB)

In Job the "adversary" took his place among the other angelic "sons of God" and in Revelation he is identified as "the serpent of old who is called the devil and satan" who is thrown down to the earth 'with his angels'. So it is clear that the "adversary" is satan the devil...a rebel angel with other rebels who have joined him.

B. No where does the Bible actually say that Satan is a fallen angel. The verse of Luke 10:18 does in certain translations, but that is because the term Satan is used incorrectly. If you remember from point A, the correct term in English is "the adversary," so the verse should read "I saw 'the adversary' fall like lightning from heaven."

Perhaps the scripture in Ezekiel to the King of Tyre will add some light.

Ezekiel 28:12-19:
“You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering.....
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you."

This is clearly addressed to satan. He was initially a perfect angelic son of God, who was of high station (a cherub) and who was evidently placed as a guardian in Eden by God himself. This explains his direct access to the woman when her husband was not with her. Unrighteousness festered in his heart and led him into sin. He observed all that took place in the garden and he planned his moves very carefully.

C. Satan can't do anything without God's permission. This is true, and if you look at the Book of Job, it is clearly evident. God brings Job up to Satan for testing; Satan did not go out and find Job. Furthermore, God set the rules for the tests and Satan had no choice but to obey. Lastly, God is omnipotent (remember #1 above) so if Satan were truly this evil, fallen angel, total nemesis to God...couldn't God just snap His fingers and uncreate Satan, thus saving a bunch of red tape?

Allowing something as a test is nothing new with God. He does not create the problem but allows something bad to take place to ascertain what an individual will do with the free will he has been given. Satan abused his free will first, but he could not force the humans to disobey their God. All he could do was plant seeds of doubt, appeal to self interest, and hope that those seeds would grow. He got to the man through dividing his loyalties....divide and conquer is a tactic he still uses to great advantage.

It is true that God sets limits as to what satan can do, but he sets no such limits on humans, who can carry out the most "inhuman" activities under satan's influence. (1 John 5:19)
The pre-flood conditions of Noah's day are an example of this. Humankind had degenerated into evil as their only course because of demonic influence. (Genesis 6:5-8) Only one family was righteous, untouched by the conduct of those around them. God facilitated a way for that family to save themselves. He did not save them directly. A lot of hard work was undertaken first. If they had not put in the effort and followed God's instructions to the letter, things may not have gone so well.

Saying that God could "just snap his fingers and uncreate satan" betrays a complete lack of understanding as to why he didn't. The "red tape" is carefully recorded for a reason.
In the book of Jehovah's law there are now precedents set by which all future abuses of free will can be judged. It is a faculty we will retain.
The devil made accusations about God and about his human creation that needed to be answered. The only way to do that legally is to allow your adversary the freedom to prove his case. God has done that very successfully. He has proven that he did not lie....humans die as a result of disobedience. He has proven that humans cannot rule themselves successfully without his direction and guidance, no matter how many systems of government he tries, he fails to bring about good rulership. Power corrupts humans because they were never designed to rule one another. (Jeremiah 10:23)

 

[Deeje]

4. Christians go to Heaven when they die.

I disagree with this, and so does the Bible. No where does the Bible ever say this. Let's break this one down also.

A. Heaven has three different meanings, depending on the context.
- the dwelling place of God
- the cosmos/universe
- the sky

The problem is that many translations lump all the meanings into one, and use the term incorrectly.

Agreed...the tendency is to formulate a doctrine then try to fit the Bible into it. That only works if people are ignorant. This is not the time for ignorance....this is the age of information.
There is no excuse for ignorance now. The church has lost a great deal of its power over the masses because of this. When the tough questions are asked...there better be answers.

B. Revelation 20 tells us that all the dead are raised up from the grave (hades) and the sea, and are judged. Those not passing judgment are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed, not tormented eternally.

Actually there is a thousand years of Kingdom rule before the "lake of fire" thing. Those who are resurrected "first" are to be rulers with Christ in heaven. They are also assigned the position of priests, (Revelation 20:6) so there have to be subjects for them to rule and sinners for whom to perform their duties. Most people have no idea about this. Fixated on "going to heaven" they have no idea why God didn't just put them there in the first place.

Revelation 21 clearly tells us that the righteous go on to paradise on new earth, not heaven.

Paradise was always on earth. Eden was the first paradise and it will be restored because it was God's first purpose and it will not be defeated. (Isaiah 55:11)

C. People will resort to the verse of Luke 23:43 as proof of going to heaven. Not so fast. They fail to realize that Koine Greek, which the NT was written in, does not contain punctuation marks. The placement of the comma is traditionally as follows:

"Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." [present tense]

However, that comma placement is a guess, and it could also go here:

"Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." [future tense]

Not to mention Jesus says paradise, not heaven.

And not to mention that Jesus did not go to heaven for 40 days after his resurrection.

5. God controls everything, and everything happens for a reason.

I disagree with this. I believe in the free will of living beings. We make our own choices and deal with the consequences; good or bad.

A. If God controlled everything, then that means every sickness, every death, every murder, every rape, every calamity that happens to you...is God's fault. He caused it because He controlled it. He made it happen. That is not my idea of a loving, benevolent deity.

Exactly. God's allowing it doesn't mean that he causes it. Going through trials successfully brings great rewards. Look what happened to Job after his tangle with the devil....

Job 42:10-16:
"The Lord restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the Lord increased all that Job had twofold......The Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning.....He had seven sons and three daughters.....After this, Job lived 140 years, and saw his sons and his grandsons, four generations."

B. Free will lets God off the hook and puts the blame on either a choice that was made, or natural law (tornado, earthquake). Bad things happen to good people because some people make bad choices and commit wicked acts.

Free will was supposed to be a gift that would have enhanced the lives of humans every day in a paradise setting, but the abuse of free will turned it into a curse when the free will of someone righteous could be conquered by the free will of someone wicked. God will not intervene because this is satan's chance to prove that his rulership is better, so if God lightened the consequences of our actions, this world might not seem so bad. We can all see that it's 'going to hell in a handbasket' as humans struggle to dominate humans to their detriment.

Please share your thoughts/opinions.

 

[Burl]

The idea that God is benevolent and loving coincides with Jesus dying for our sins if we accept the Sons of Men as moral examples by which we can be judged.

elaborate on this further

Can you explain what that means?

The virtue of patience in regards to what we can expect from humanity. The record shows that Jesus was less than patient in some areas.

 

[Neo Deist]

God certainly has the power to do whatever pleases him.... but "uncreate"?

Yes. That comes under omnipotence.

Jesus was not a "rabble rouser" at all, but one sent by God to re-establish true worship in a system that was theocratically broken. The religious leaders hated him because he exposed them for the religious hypocrites that they were. (Matthew 23:13-33)

Yes actually, he was. There is a difference between the Gospels, which were written by 3rd party, anonymous authors decades after the fact, and actual history. He was not the first person crucified as a form of capital punishment.

Pilate found no fault in him and certainly no crime deserving of execution. Only when the Jews threatened to report him to Caesar for treason did he value his own life more than that of the innocent man brought before him. Washing his hands of the whole affair Pilate handed Jesus over to be flogged just to appease the crowd who were crying out for his blood. (Matthew 27:25) Pilate wanted to release him.

That is not historical. Pilate was known to be rather diabolical and was actually exiled by Caesar because he was too cruel and his actions were causing civil unrest. Furthermore, Pilate had a Roman garrison under his command and had nothing to fear from the Jews. He did not have to appease anyone. All he had to do was say "get the hell out of my face" and if they did not move fast enough, he could have them executed. What you are quoting from the Bible is an attempt by early Christian authors to remove the blame from Pilate and place it on the Pharisees.

It helps to know history. Not slamming you, just pointing out a few things.

 

[Neo Deist]

Correct. God's "adversary" was first revealed in Genesis as a "serpent" who deceived the woman into disobedience. She then influenced her husband (his intended target) and accomplished his aim of alienating the humans from their God. Now he could be a god to them, taking worship for himself by the many religious systems he established in opposition to the true God after the flood. He is spoken about again in the book of Job 1:6; 2:1 as taking his place before God in the presence of other angels.

Genesis is not literal.

But he is clearly identified in Revelation 12:7-9...."And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." (NASB)

The verse should read "...the serpent of old who is called the devil [slanderer] and adversary..." if you want absolute correctness in translation. Satan is not a name.

In Job the "adversary" took his place among the other angelic "sons of God" and in Revelation he is identified as "the serpent of old who is called the devil and satan" who is thrown down to the earth 'with his angels'. So it is clear that the "adversary" is satan the devil...a rebel angel with other rebels who have joined him.

No one and nothing can thwart God's will. That means that no angel can rebel unless God allows it. "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." - Matthew 6:10

God's will is done in heaven. Therefore, Satan can't rebel of his own free will. The Bible, that you like to quote, says so.

Satan is not God's nemesis. The omnipotent creator could simply uncreate Satan if your theory were true.

Perhaps the scripture in Ezekiel to the King of Tyre will add some light.

Ezekiel 28:12-19:
“You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering.....
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you."

This is clearly addressed to satan. He was initially a perfect angelic son of God, who was of high station (a cherub) and who was evidently placed as a guardian in Eden by God himself. This explains his direct access to the woman when her husband was not with her. Unrighteousness festered in his heart and led him into sin. He observed all that took place in the garden and he planned his moves very carefully.

Ezekiel and Isaiah are not talking about Satan. They are talking about Babylonian kings (humans). The Persian Empire was held in disdain by the Jews, especially after Nebuchadnezzar II conquered Jerusalem and burned down the temples. Again, ancient history 101.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'd like to discuss some common concepts that are taught in various aspects of Christianity. I understand that not every denomination agrees with this list, but after spending 30 years as a Baptist and visiting other churches, I have heard them multiple times from different sources. I am not looking to flame anyone, but rather have an intelligent conversation. I will provide my thoughts and beliefs after each concept, based on my deistic view.
1. God is omnipotent (all powerful).
I agree with this concept. God is the creator of the universe and everything in it. It also means that God has the power to uncreate. More on this later.
2. Jesus died for our sins.
I disagree with this. Jesus died as a result of being a "rabble rouser." The Roman Governor Pilate ordered his execution, and made an example out of him. The story got distorted decades later, and the pagan concept of a blood sacrifice took root. Besides, the OT is full of verses that contradict dying for another's sins. However, early Christians wanted to make a martyr out of Jesus, so "dying for our sins" became a central theme.
3. Satan is the devil, is a fallen angel, and works against God.
First off, the entire Satan thing is vastly misunderstood. Let's break this down into sub-sections.
A. Satan is a Hebrew term, and in English it means "adversary." Everywhere in the OT Hebrew that Satan appears, it is preceded by 'the' which means the correct term would be "the satan" or more accurately "the adversary." It is a title, not a name. If you are going to translate the Hebrew 'Yeshua' into Jesus, so should you also translate the Hebrew 'satan' into adversary.
B. No where does the Bible actually say that Satan is a fallen angel. The verse of Luke 10:18 does in certain translations, but that is because the term Satan is used incorrectly. If you remember from point A, the correct term in English is "the adversary," so the verse should read "I saw 'the adversary' fall like lightning from heaven."
C. Satan can't do anything without God's permission. This is true, and if you look at the Book of Job, it is clearly evident. God brings Job up to Satan for testing; Satan did not go out and find Job. Furthermore, God set the rules for the tests and Satan had no choice but to obey. Lastly, God is omnipotent (remember #1 above) so if Satan were truly this evil, fallen angel, total nemesis to God...couldn't God just snap His fingers and uncreate Satan, thus saving a bunch of red tape?
4. Christians go to Heaven when they die.
I disagree with this, and so does the Bible. No where does the Bible ever say this. Let's break this one down also.
A. Heaven has three different meanings, depending on the context.
- the dwelling place of God
- the cosmos/universe
- the sky
The problem is that many translations lump all the meanings into one, and use the term incorrectly.
B. Revelation 20 tells us that all the dead are raised up from the grave (hades) and the sea, and are judged. Those not passing judgment are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed, not tormented eternally.
Revelation 21 clearly tells us that the righteous go on to paradise on new earth, not heaven.
C. People will resort to the verse of Luke 23:43 as proof of going to heaven. Not so fast. They fail to realize that Koine Greek, which the NT was written in, does not contain punctuation marks. The placement of the comma is traditionally as follows:
"Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." [present tense]
However, that comma placement is a guess, and it could also go here:
"Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." [future tense]
Not to mention Jesus says paradise, not heaven.
5. God controls everything, and everything happens for a reason.
I disagree with this. I believe in the free will of living beings. We make our own choices and deal with the consequences; good or bad.
A. If God controlled everything, then that means every sickness, every death, every murder, every rape, every calamity that happens to you...is God's fault. He caused it because He controlled it. He made it happen. That is not my idea of a loving, benevolent deity.
B. Free will lets God off the hook and puts the blame on either a choice that was made, or natural law (tornado, earthquake). Bad things happen to good people because some people make bad choices and commit wicked acts.
Please share your thoughts/opinions.

1. If God was ALL powerful then God could lie, etc, but God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18. God can Not force us to serve or love Him.
2. Because we can Not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Romans 5:19; Revelation 1:18
3. Satan is a fallen angel (cherub ) - Ezekiel 28:14-16
4. Those of Revelation 20:6 ' go to heaven ' to serve mankind on Earth as kings and priests for a thousand years with Christ - Revelation 5:9-10; Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14
5. God granted all of us free-will choices. God forces No one to serve or worship Him.- Leviticus 1:3; Leviticus 1:7; Exodus 35:21-22; Exodus 35:29

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Genesis is not literal.
The verse should read "...the serpent of old who is called the devil [slanderer] and adversary..." if you want absolute correctness in translation. Satan is not a name.
No one and nothing can thwart God's will. That means that no angel can rebel unless God allows it. "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." - Matthew 6:10
God's will is done in heaven. Therefore, Satan can't rebel of his own free will. The Bible, that you like to quote, says so.
Satan is not God's nemesis. The omnipotent creator could simply uncreate Satan if your theory were true.
Ezekiel and Isaiah are not talking about Satan. They are talking about Babylonian kings (humans). The Persian Empire was held in disdain by the Jews, especially after Nebuchadnezzar II conquered Jerusalem and burned down the temples. Again, ancient history 101.

Correct, Satan is Not a name, but is identified by being called Satan the Devil. His actual name is No longer in God's book of life.
Sure, Satan has free-will choices as do all angels and humans. - Leviticus 22:19; Exodus 35:21-22,29
Once the sin issue is settled here on Earth, then Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B. ( In a loose sense, uncreate Satan and his demons )
What Babylonian king was a cherub ( angel ) in Eden - Ezekiel 28:14-16 ?
The boastful king of Tyre became haughty thus being a representation for cherubic Satan - Ezekiel 28:2

 

[Neo Deist]

1. If God was ALL powerful then God could lie, etc, but God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18. God can Not force us to serve or love Him.
2. Because we can Not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Romans 5:19; Revelation 1:18
3. Satan is a fallen angel (cherub ) - Ezekiel 28:14-16
4. Those of Revelation 20:6 ' go to heaven ' to serve mankind on Earth as kings and priests for a thousand years with Christ - Revelation 5:9-10; Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14
5. God granted all of us free-will choices. God forces No one to serve or worship Him.- Leviticus 1:3; Leviticus 1:7; Exodus 35:21-22; Exodus 35:29

Humans can't dictate what God can or can't so, so quoting verses placing restrictions on God from a man made holy book is pointless.

Ezekiel 28 has nothing to do with Satan. It is prophecy against the King of Tyre.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Humans can't dictate what God can or can't so, so quoting verses placing restrictions on God from a man made holy book is pointless.
Ezekiel 28 has nothing to do with Satan. It is prophecy against the King of Tyre.

When was the king of Tyre in Eden, or when was the king of Tyre a cherub ? ______________- Ezekiel 28:14-16

All things produced on Earth are man-made things.
For God, then man is a secretary for Him, recording or writing down God's thoughts for us - 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Remember: God granted Earth to humans - Psalms 115:16, so why wouldn't God use humans to write down His thoughts.

 

[Neo Deist]

When was the king of Tyre in Eden, or when was the king of Tyre a cherub ? ______________- Ezekiel 28:14-16

All things produced on Earth are man-made things.
For God, then man is a secretary for Him, recording or writing down God's thoughts for us - 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Remember: God granted Earth to humans - Psalms 115:16, so why wouldn't God use humans to write down His thoughts.

Ok, may I suggest taking theology at university or seminary (I did...have a doctorate). You will learn that much of what you read in the Bible is symbolic, not literal. That entire chapter of Ezekiel is in reference to the King of Tyre, under the Babylonian Empire. It does not have a single thing to do with Satan.

Yes there are some vocal evangelicals that WANT it to be about Satan, but alas it is not. Any true theological scholar that has studied theology and apologetics will agree with me. Many Christians have the same problem that you and others do...they take things at face value, cherry pick them out of context, and then apply them to whatever standard they are trying to support.

If you still don't believe me, just do a Google search for Ezekiel 28 and look at the various study commentary. Here, let me help you...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+28

The chapter title says it all.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/ezekiel/28.html

Nothing about Satan. Plenty about Tyre.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bcc/ezekiel-28.html

Again, the King of Tyre.

 

[sojourner]

You will have to elaborate on this further, because a benevolent God that causes sin, suffering, and death that could just otherwise snap His divine fingers and make the world a happy, peaceful place, is obviously MIA.

By that I mean God apparently has a "hands off" approach and just lets nature take its course. Besides, with the billions upon billions of other planets in the universe, what kind of existence would it be for Jesus to be born on every inhabited planet just to die repeatedly (if that is what is required for atonement)?

Lastly, why would God need to create Himself in the flesh in order to have atonement? It seems to me that the omnipotent creator could just say "NO MORE SIN" and it would be so. No need for all the theatrics.

I'm confused. You claim to hold two doctorates, one in theology, yet you make some claims here that patently fall outside the bounds of good, biblically-based theology.

You say, "God causes sin ... And death." Neither is biblical. Sin is a human condition brought about by humanity. Likewise death.

You say, "God created Himself in the flesh." That also is not biblical, nor does it fall within the bounds of the understanding of the Trinity (from which the Christian concept of God-made-flesh comes). I don't understand the basis of your theological claims, since you use the bible in other areas to support your claims.

 

[Neo Deist]

I'm confused. You claim to hold two doctorates, one in theology, yet you make some claims here that patently fall outside the bounds of good, biblically-based theology.

I study world religions, not just Christianity. The fact that I use deist in my name should give you a clue as to my beliefs.

You say, "God causes sin ... And death." Neither is biblical. Sin is a human condition brought about by humanity. Likewise death.

No, what I said was that some people think that God controls everything. If that is the case, then God is responsible for everything. That is not my particular belief, and I made that very clear.

You say, "God created Himself in the flesh." That also is not biblical, nor does it fall within the bounds of the understanding of the Trinity (from which the Christian concept of God-made-flesh comes). I don't understand the basis of your theological claims, since you use the bible in other areas to support your claims.

Again, some people think that Jesus is God incarnate. This is not my belief.

The claims that I make are not so much my beliefs, but rather comparing traditional Christian beliefs that are not biblical vs. what the Bible actually says.

 

[sojourner]

I study world religions, not just Christianity. The fact that I use deist in my name should give you a clue as to my beliefs.



No, what I said was that some people think that God controls everything. If that is the case, then God is responsible for everything. That is not my particular belief, and I made that very clear.



Again, some people think that Jesus is God incarnate. This is not my belief.

The claims that I make are not so much my beliefs, but rather comparing traditional Christian beliefs that are not biblical vs. what the Bible actually says.

If you're going, though, to treat traditional Christian beliefs, you've got to treat those beliefs -- not what you believe about them. The Trinity, for example, is a foundational, biblically-based, traditional belief -- regardless of what you, personally, believe. So, you are, in fact, making claims about your beliefs.