Christian Concepts

[sojourner]

No, what I said was that some people think that God controls everything. If that is the case, then God is responsible for everything. That is not my particular belief, and I made that very clear.

Here's what you said: "a benevolent God that causes sin, suffering and death..." (Post #4). The belief that God causes sin is neither biblical nor traditional. Whose belief, then, is that? And if it's not traditional or biblical, how does such a statement help your cause?

 

[Neo Deist]

Here's what you said: "a benevolent God that causes sin, suffering and death..." (Post #4). The belief that God causes sin is neither biblical nor traditional. Whose belief, then, is that? And if it's not traditional or biblical, how does such a statement help your cause?

Go back and reread it. It was a rebuttal against what Burl said, not my belief.

 

[Neo Deist]

If you're going, though, to treat traditional Christian beliefs, you've got to treat those beliefs -- not what you believe about them. The Trinity, for example, is a foundational, biblically-based, traditional belief -- regardless of what you, personally, believe. So, you are, in fact, making claims about your beliefs.

The Trinity is traditional, not biblical.

 

[metis]

The Trinity is traditional, not biblical.

It's based on biblical interpretation, which is never uniform between people nor denominations.

 

[Sleeppy]

1. God is omnipotent (all powerful).

I agree with this concept. God is the creator of the universe and everything in it. It also means that God has the power to uncreate. More on this later.

2. Jesus died for our sins.

I disagree with this. Jesus died as a result of being a "rabble rouser." The Roman Governor Pilate ordered his execution, and made an example out of him. The story got distorted decades later, and the pagan concept of a blood sacrifice took root. Besides, the OT is full of verses that contradict dying for another's sins. However, early Christians wanted to make a martyr out of Jesus, so "dying for our sins" became a central theme.

3. Satan is the devil, is a fallen angel, and works against God.

First off, the entire Satan thing is vastly misunderstood. Let's break this down into sub-sections.

A. Satan is a Hebrew term, and in English it means "adversary." Everywhere in the OT Hebrew that Satan appears, it is preceded by 'the' which means the correct term would be "the satan" or more accurately "the adversary." It is a title, not a name. If you are going to translate the Hebrew 'Yeshua' into Jesus, so should you also translate the Hebrew 'satan' into adversary.

B. No where does the Bible actually say that Satan is a fallen angel. The verse of Luke 10:18 does in certain translations, but that is because the term Satan is used incorrectly. If you remember from point A, the correct term in English is "the adversary," so the verse should read "I saw 'the adversary' fall like lightning from heaven."

C. Satan can't do anything without God's permission. This is true, and if you look at the Book of Job, it is clearly evident. God brings Job up to Satan for testing; Satan did not go out and find Job. Furthermore, God set the rules for the tests and Satan had no choice but to obey. Lastly, God is omnipotent (remember #1 above) so if Satan were truly this evil, fallen angel, total nemesis to God...couldn't God just snap His fingers and uncreate Satan, thus saving a bunch of red tape?

4. Christians go to Heaven when they die.

I disagree with this, and so does the Bible. No where does the Bible ever say this. Let's break this one down also.

5. God controls everything, and everything happens for a reason.

I disagree with this. I believe in the free will of living beings. We make our own choices and deal with the consequences; good or bad.

A. If God controlled everything, then that means every sickness, every death, every murder, every rape, every calamity that happens to you...is God's fault. He caused it because He controlled it. He made it happen. That is not my idea of a loving, benevolent deity.

B. Free will lets God off the hook and puts the blame on either a choice that was made, or natural law (tornado, earthquake). Bad things happen to good people because some people make bad choices and commit wicked acts.


Please share your thoughts/opinions.

1. True. However, omnipotence becomes subject to logical fallacies if permitted. God's omnipotence isn't a potential force, but an unchanging reality i.e. the insurmountable will of God.

 

[Thief]

I'd like to discuss some common concepts that are taught in various aspects of Christianity. I understand that not every denomination agrees with this list, but after spending 30 years as a Baptist and visiting other churches, I have heard them multiple times from different sources. I am not looking to flame anyone, but rather have an intelligent conversation. I will provide my thoughts and beliefs after each concept, based on my deistic view.

1. God is omnipotent (all powerful).

I agree with this concept. God is the creator of the universe and everything in it. It also means that God has the power to uncreate. More on this later.

2. Jesus died for our sins.

I disagree with this. Jesus died as a result of being a "rabble rouser." The Roman Governor Pilate ordered his execution, and made an example out of him. The story got distorted decades later, and the pagan concept of a blood sacrifice took root. Besides, the OT is full of verses that contradict dying for another's sins. However, early Christians wanted to make a martyr out of Jesus, so "dying for our sins" became a central theme.

3. Satan is the devil, is a fallen angel, and works against God.

First off, the entire Satan thing is vastly misunderstood. Let's break this down into sub-sections.

A. Satan is a Hebrew term, and in English it means "adversary." Everywhere in the OT Hebrew that Satan appears, it is preceded by 'the' which means the correct term would be "the satan" or more accurately "the adversary." It is a title, not a name. If you are going to translate the Hebrew 'Yeshua' into Jesus, so should you also translate the Hebrew 'satan' into adversary.

B. No where does the Bible actually say that Satan is a fallen angel. The verse of Luke 10:18 does in certain translations, but that is because the term Satan is used incorrectly. If you remember from point A, the correct term in English is "the adversary," so the verse should read "I saw 'the adversary' fall like lightning from heaven."

C. Satan can't do anything without God's permission. This is true, and if you look at the Book of Job, it is clearly evident. God brings Job up to Satan for testing; Satan did not go out and find Job. Furthermore, God set the rules for the tests and Satan had no choice but to obey. Lastly, God is omnipotent (remember #1 above) so if Satan were truly this evil, fallen angel, total nemesis to God...couldn't God just snap His fingers and uncreate Satan, thus saving a bunch of red tape?

4. Christians go to Heaven when they die.

I disagree with this, and so does the Bible. No where does the Bible ever say this. Let's break this one down also.

A. Heaven has three different meanings, depending on the context.
- the dwelling place of God
- the cosmos/universe
- the sky

The problem is that many translations lump all the meanings into one, and use the term incorrectly.

B. Revelation 20 tells us that all the dead are raised up from the grave (hades) and the sea, and are judged. Those not passing judgment are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed, not tormented eternally.

Revelation 21 clearly tells us that the righteous go on to paradise on new earth, not heaven.

C. People will resort to the verse of Luke 23:43 as proof of going to heaven. Not so fast. They fail to realize that Koine Greek, which the NT was written in, does not contain punctuation marks. The placement of the comma is traditionally as follows:

"Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." [present tense]

However, that comma placement is a guess, and it could also go here:

"Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." [future tense]

Not to mention Jesus says paradise, not heaven.

5. God controls everything, and everything happens for a reason.

I disagree with this. I believe in the free will of living beings. We make our own choices and deal with the consequences; good or bad.

A. If God controlled everything, then that means every sickness, every death, every murder, every rape, every calamity that happens to you...is God's fault. He caused it because He controlled it. He made it happen. That is not my idea of a loving, benevolent deity.

B. Free will lets God off the hook and puts the blame on either a choice that was made, or natural law (tornado, earthquake). Bad things happen to good people because some people make bad choices and commit wicked acts.


Please share your thoughts/opinions.

I believe in freewill.....and there is at least ...one...
set upon undoing God's will
alleged to have been God's Favored

heaven is within you....

and when tempting Job....it was the devil himself that set the terms of the 'test'
but God had nothing to prove
and neither did Job

 

[Sleeppy]

2. True. Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. All people, from Abel onward are sacrifices, for the repentance of them in the spirit of Cain.

 

[Sleeppy]

4. True. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Pick up your cross, resist not evil, resist not your adversary, and those looking to save their lives will lose them.

Heaven is in all places, i.e. God is in all. Paradise is an 'earthen garden' for the meek. I suggest, it describes another locale within time, on Earth- as well as other places throughout the heavens, or space.

As people are reborn in greater numbers in the Earth, evolutionary processes move forward exponentially.

 

[sojourner]

Go back and reread it. It was a rebuttal against what Burl said, not my belief.

The Trinity is traditional, not biblical.

It is biblically-based and biblically-derived.

 

[Neo Deist]

It is biblically-based and biblically-derived.

Name the verse that talks about the Trinity.

 

[savagewind]

1. If God was ALL powerful then God could lie, etc, but God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18. God can

Those scriptures are about the fact that God can't lie about God's promises. They don't mean God can not lie. 1 Kings 22:22 2 Thessalonians 2:11

 

[Muffled]

From the OP: 4. "No where does the Bible ever say this."

I don't believe it says it word for word but the implication is there:
Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

The implication of having treasure in Heaven is that the person is there. There is nothing physical in Heaven so the only way to have it is to bring it with you.

 

[Muffled]

Name the verse that talks about the Trinity.

I believe John 14 spells it out.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It is biblically-based and biblically-derived.

It's about as biblical, I find, as the Bible Code.

 

[Neo Deist]

I believe John 14 spells it out.

Nope, nothing mentioned about the Trinity there, either. Of course if you are using the Gospels as evidence for the Trinity you can stop right there. The Gospels were written decades after Jesus' death by 3rd party, anonymous authors who were not eyewitnesses to his events. That makes them hearsay.

 

[Neo Deist]

2. True. Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. All people, from Abel onward are sacrifices, for the repentance of them in the spirit of Cain.

Nah, he died because he was a rabble rouser and Pilate made an example out of him. The concept of him dying for our sins (which the OT says no one can do) came about years later because the early Christians were trying to make a martyr out of him.

If you believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is God, well that is your choice. Personally I do not buy into it. God, as an omnipotent being and creator of the universe, could simply say "sin is forgiven" and it would be so. The idea of a blood sacrifice is human in nature, and is found in multiple cultures across the world. Start thinking on a cosmic scale instead of an earth centric one.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

You will have to elaborate on this further, because a benevolent God that causes sin, suffering, and death that could just otherwise snap His divine fingers and make the world a happy, peaceful place, is obviously MIA.

By that I mean God apparently has a "hands off" approach and just lets nature take its course. Besides, with the billions upon billions of other planets in the universe, what kind of existence would it be for Jesus to be born on every inhabited planet just to die repeatedly (if that is what is required for atonement)?

Lastly, why would God need to create Himself in the flesh in order to have atonement? It seems to me that the omnipotent creator could just say "NO MORE SIN" and it would be so. No need for all the theatrics.

I'd say the answers to those 3 questions are free will, free will and free will.

As parents we could likewise often snap our fingers and grant our children all kinds of easy solutions to their challenges for them.

And likewise, our children may not always appreciate why we withhold this power, that being granted the free will to overcome their own challenges, is ultimately the far greater and more loving gift.

 

[Sleeppy]

Nah, he died because he was a rabble rouser and Pilate made an example out of him. The concept of him dying for our sins (which the OT says no one can do) came about years later because the early Christians were trying to make a martyr out of him.

If you believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is God, well that is your choice. Personally I do not buy into it. God, as an omnipotent being and creator of the universe, could simply say "sin is forgiven" and it would be so. The idea of a blood sacrifice is human in nature, and is found in multiple cultures across the world. Start thinking on a cosmic scale instead of an earth centric one.

The concepts of intercession and social culpability actually have very strong basis in the OT.

 

[Neo Deist]

The concepts of intercession and social culpability actually have very strong basis in the OT.

Ancient myths told by ancient people who were largely uneducated, mostly male chauvinistic, and born from the concepts of human sacrifice.

I live in the 21st century CE.

 

[1robin]

I'd like to discuss some common concepts that are taught in various aspects of Christianity. I understand that not every denomination agrees with this list, but after spending 30 years as a Baptist and visiting other churches, I have heard them multiple times from different sources. I am not looking to flame anyone, but rather have an intelligent conversation. I will provide my thoughts and beliefs after each concept, based on my deistic view.

1. God is omnipotent (all powerful).

I agree with this concept. God is the creator of the universe and everything in it. It also means that God has the power to uncreate. More on this later.

2. Jesus died for our sins.

I disagree with this. Jesus died as a result of being a "rabble rouser." The Roman Governor Pilate ordered his execution, and made an example out of him. The story got distorted decades later, and the pagan concept of a blood sacrifice took root. Besides, the OT is full of verses that contradict dying for another's sins. However, early Christians wanted to make a martyr out of Jesus, so "dying for our sins" became a central theme.

3. Satan is the devil, is a fallen angel, and works against God.

First off, the entire Satan thing is vastly misunderstood. Let's break this down into sub-sections.

A. Satan is a Hebrew term, and in English it means "adversary." Everywhere in the OT Hebrew that Satan appears, it is preceded by 'the' which means the correct term would be "the satan" or more accurately "the adversary." It is a title, not a name. If you are going to translate the Hebrew 'Yeshua' into Jesus, so should you also translate the Hebrew 'satan' into adversary.

B. No where does the Bible actually say that Satan is a fallen angel. The verse of Luke 10:18 does in certain translations, but that is because the term Satan is used incorrectly. If you remember from point A, the correct term in English is "the adversary," so the verse should read "I saw 'the adversary' fall like lightning from heaven."

C. Satan can't do anything without God's permission. This is true, and if you look at the Book of Job, it is clearly evident. God brings Job up to Satan for testing; Satan did not go out and find Job. Furthermore, God set the rules for the tests and Satan had no choice but to obey. Lastly, God is omnipotent (remember #1 above) so if Satan were truly this evil, fallen angel, total nemesis to God...couldn't God just snap His fingers and uncreate Satan, thus saving a bunch of red tape?

4. Christians go to Heaven when they die.

I disagree with this, and so does the Bible. No where does the Bible ever say this. Let's break this one down also.

A. Heaven has three different meanings, depending on the context.
- the dwelling place of God
- the cosmos/universe
- the sky

The problem is that many translations lump all the meanings into one, and use the term incorrectly.

B. Revelation 20 tells us that all the dead are raised up from the grave (hades) and the sea, and are judged. Those not passing judgment are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed, not tormented eternally.

Revelation 21 clearly tells us that the righteous go on to paradise on new earth, not heaven.

C. People will resort to the verse of Luke 23:43 as proof of going to heaven. Not so fast. They fail to realize that Koine Greek, which the NT was written in, does not contain punctuation marks. The placement of the comma is traditionally as follows:

"Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." [present tense]

However, that comma placement is a guess, and it could also go here:

"Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." [future tense]

Not to mention Jesus says paradise, not heaven.

5. God controls everything, and everything happens for a reason.

I disagree with this. I believe in the free will of living beings. We make our own choices and deal with the consequences; good or bad.

A. If God controlled everything, then that means every sickness, every death, every murder, every rape, every calamity that happens to you...is God's fault. He caused it because He controlled it. He made it happen. That is not my idea of a loving, benevolent deity.

B. Free will lets God off the hook and puts the blame on either a choice that was made, or natural law (tornado, earthquake). Bad things happen to good people because some people make bad choices and commit wicked acts.


Please share your thoughts/opinions.

This is far too large and generalized to agree with or refute. Can you please concentrate on one or two claims and you reasons why you agree or reject them?

I will respond to two and maybe you can limit your claims to them.

2. I believe Christ died for our sins based on the validity of scripture. Why are the scriptures and history wrong about Christ's purpose and existence?

4. I believe Christians go to heaven for several reasons. A. My personal experience. B. That personal experience confirming the Bible's historical claims about Christ and the Christian. C. The far greater harmony, sufficiency, our moral bankruptcy, and consistency of the Biblical salvation model compared with all other models in human literacy? Why do you reject the above?