Christian Deist

[ThePainefulTruth]

Free will is no more credible to me than Soul. Show me some empirical evidence for its existence.

Tom

I can decide to continue the conversation down this pointless path, or......

 

[columbus]

Not
Tom

 

[Neo Deist]

I see no problem with someone saying that they are a Christian Deist, given my previous outline (which is not all inclusive or exclusive). Terminology tends to evolve over time, and as such the meaning behind "hyphenated deisms" will be subject to that. There are those of us who will remain rigid and vehemently deny anything beyond its original meaning, but being that rigid is the position that The Church took prior to the Protestant Reformation, and look where that got them. If people are growing up and thinking for themselves instead of blindly following what religion/denomination X preach, I welcome it, even if it means they want a unique label to identify with.

 

[Bunyip]

Surely deism and Christianity are mutually exclusive? Yahweh is a personal, interventionist God - deism does not believe in such a being.
A Christian deist is like a meat eating vegetarian.

 

[Neo Deist]

Yahweh is a personal, interventionist God...

As defined by who? Nothing is known or can be proven about God.

Let's also keep in mind that this particular forum is for the discussion of Theological Concepts about Deism. Debating, while it may happen to some degree, needs to be kept at a minimum, or at least not personal.

 

[Bunyip]

As defined by who? Nothing is known or can be proven about God.

Let's also keep in mind that this particular forum is for the discussion of Theological Concepts about Deism. Debating, while it may happen to some degree, needs to be kept at a minimum, or at least not personal.

Sure. I was simply defining Christianity as the belief in Jesus as the son of god and salvation through his sacrifice - a pretty standard definition.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

There are those of us who will remain rigid and vehemently deny anything beyond its original meaning, but being that rigid is the position that The Church took prior to the Protestant Reformation, and look where that got them. If people are growing up and thinking for themselves instead of blindly following what religion/denomination X preach, I welcome it, even if it means they want a unique label to identify with.

Wow, three cheap shot in one paragraph. Why do I get the feeling I've been here before?

I've already shown that I can change, which I did when I became a deist after being raised as a devout Christian. And I'm not saying I'd never change again if reason dictated, I'm just talking about standardizing the definitions for the words we use to communicate, and think clearly. If I did change, I'd use the language of the new philosophy I was moving to, not try to co-opt it in order to make it easier to accept, not to mention the confusion. Or maybe helping them think clearly is not your objective.

Christians tried to change the definition back in the early days of deism. They were the ones who got the clockmaker God put into the dictionaries, saying the deist God didn't care about us or the universe and so abandoned it. Now Christians (and many others) are trying to change it again--denigrating the core tenet with words like classic (passe), rigid and in denial.

As defined by who? Nothing is known or can be proven about God.

We're not talking about the scientific, reasonable position on God here, were talking about Christians and their definition--the ones you're appealing to, the ones you're trying to convince to meld with deism. The word that usually comes up when deists talk is reason, but I don't see you using it.

 

[Neo Deist]

Wow, three cheap shot in one paragraph.

Not sure if you took that personally or not, but my statement was not directed at anyone in particular.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Not sure if you took that personally or not, but my statement was not directed at anyone in particular.

Doesn't much matter if you were using a rifle or a shotgun; you aimed it and pulled the trigger. At least it was loaded with blanks.

 

[JRMcC]

Surely deism and Christianity are mutually exclusive? Yahweh is a personal, interventionist God - deism does not believe in such a being.
A Christian deist is like a meat eating vegetarian.

It depends on how you interpret the scriptures (religious language) and/or how you understand religious tradition.

Sure. I was simply defining Christianity as the belief in Jesus as the son of god and salvation through his sacrifice - a pretty standard definition.

That's a pretty standard definition, but I personally don't understand how people came to the conclusion that that is the most important aspect of "Christianity."

 

[Bunyip]

It depends on how you interpret the scriptures (religious language) and/or how you understand religious tradition.

Um.....yes mate - same can be said for every possible topic of discussion.

That's a pretty standard definition, but I personally don't understand how people came to the conclusion that that is the most important aspect of "Christianity."

Sure.

 

[columbus]

Surely deism and Christianity are mutually exclusive? Yahweh is a personal, interventionist God - deism does not believe in such a being.
A Christian deist is like a meat eating vegetarian.

I am a Christian deist.
I was born and raised Catholic. I came to the realization that Jesus is like Santa Claus for grownups early on. But the culture and morality aren't going away.
I came to my own beliefs about God, and then found out that there was a word for it, deist.
So I am a Christian deist.
Tom

 

[Bunyip]

I am a Christian deist.
I was born and raised Catholic. I came to the realization that Jesus is like Santa Claus for grownups early on. But the culture and morality aren't going away.
I came to my own beliefs about God, and then found out that there was a word for it, deist.
So I am a Christian deist.
Tom

Sure Tom. But that is not how mainstream Christianity defines 'Christian'.
What is Christian about your deism? You do not believe in God the father, or his son Jesus - you do not believe in the resurrection or salvation. You do not believe in hell, heaven etc. So where does 'Christianity' comes into it?

 

[columbus]

Sure Tom. But that is not how mainstream Christianity defines 'Christian'.
What is Christian about your deism? You do not believe in God the father, or his son Jesus - you do not believe in the resurrection or salvation. You do not believe in hell, heaven etc. So where does 'Christianity' comes into it?

I explained that. Christianity is more than just the theology.
There are a bunch of people on this forum who would understand that. Christianity is not solely defined by the theological teachings.
Tom

 

[Bunyip]

I explained that. Christianity is more than just the theology.
There are a bunch of people on this forum who would understand that. Christianity is not solely defined by the theological teachings.
Tom

Well there are usually a suite of tenets that define Christianity, but sure.
I still love the positive morality and traditions of Catholicism, so I guess there can be atheist Christians as well as you define it.
I understand and respect your position, but can see where making a distinction between theism (such as traditional Christianity) and deism can be useful.

 

[columbus]

I still love the positive morality and traditions of Catholicism, so I guess there can be atheist Christians as well as you define it.

I personally believe that the mosques, churches, temples, etc. of the world contain a lot more deists than are obvious. People who believe in a higher power, but not religion.
They stay because the community is good. And there is no reason to be honest, since there is no God who cares what you believe.
I expect this is especially true in Muslim places where apostasy is a crime.
Tom

 

[Bunyip]

I personally believe that the mosques, churches, temples, etc. of the world contain a lot more deists than are obvious. People who believe in a higher power, but not religion.
They stay because the community is good. And there is no reason to be honest, since there is no God who cares what you believe.
I expect this is especially true in Muslim places where apostasy is a crime.
Tom

I think you are probably right about that. Cheers.
I guess my point is simply that some of the theological elements deism rejects are critical to many Christians, certainly not all.

 

[Bunyip]

"columbus, post: 4330258, member: 52258"I just wanted to add that your perspective on Catholicism was identical to my own for many years. As you are defining these terms I believe that I was, like you a Christian deist for many years.

 

[Neo Deist]

Sure. I was simply defining Christianity as the belief in Jesus as the son of god and salvation through his sacrifice - a pretty standard definition.

Jesus as the son of God has been subjective for a long time. Is Jesus the literal, biological son of God? Is he the son of God because we are all God's children? Why did the gospels leave out some of Jesus' ancestors when they were writing his geneaology?

I do not think his sacrifice (death by crucifixion) is what "saves" people. That was carried out by the Roman Empire and crucifixion was often used for criminals, rebels, etc. I think John 3:16 is referring to the message that Jesus taught and living a moral life as guided by that message, is what "saves." After Jesus' death, his followers used him to fuel their revolution.

 

[Bunyip]

Jesus as the son of God has been subjective for a long time. Is Jesus the literal, biological son of God? Is he the son of God because we are all God's children? Why did the gospels leave out some of Jesus' ancestors when they were writing his geneaology?

I do not think his sacrifice (death by crucifixion) is what "saves" people. That was carried out by the Roman Empire and crucifixion was often used for criminals, rebels, etc. I think John 3:16 is referring to the message that Jesus taught and living a moral life as guided by that message, is what "saves." After Jesus' death, his followers used him to fuel their revolution.

I'm atheist, I was simply explaining a common definition of Christianity.