Christian: Denominations?

[Katzpur]

By the same authority used by the woman who poured perfume on Jesus' feet: Love. There is no higher authority.

Oh, come on! So all you have to do is love Jesus Christ and you are authorized to restore the Church He established? And if few thousand folks all decide they love Him and each of them "restores" His Church, wouldn't you expect them all to be teaching the same doctrines? And wouldn't you expect those doctrines to be the same as the ones He taught? Love does not give anyone the authority to act in God's name or to speak on His behalf. It didn't in the primitive Church and it doesn't today. It sounds nice and all, but there is not a single passage of scripture to support such a notion.

 

[Katzpur]

Hello!

We do this by authority of Him that said "...I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18).

I' d like you to see also John 17 - whole chapter, 2 Corinthians 3:6-12.

We are trying to answer Paul's call to follow him - "Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me." (1 Corinthians 4:16) and to be doing what Paul (and not only Paul, but al followers of Christ) was doing, namely "Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence...".

Well, since you brought up Matthew 16, may I suggest that you consider what verse 19 says: "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

I see two problems with your premise. (1) Jesus Christ specifically gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter. If they were lost, and the authority which they represented needed to be restored, how do you get around the fact that Jesus Christ did not return to give them to whomever founded your church. (2) How do you explain the need for a restoration of the primitive Church if you believe that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church Christ established?

Or are you saying that the only requirement for restoring the primitive Church is to preach with confidence?

 

[Katzpur]

Forgive me for not citing a letter, but I see the restorationists as enacting the same types of changes Paul dictates to developing churches, just on a much broader scale (generalization). If you agree with this statement, then they are acting on divine biblical authority. However, since I'm sure no we won't be able to agree that EVERY restorationist movement was acting to restore the "church" in general, the generalization breaks down, since they would then be the divisive false prophets Paul warns against.

The Bible is a book. It does not have the power to pass on the authority held by the Prophets and Apostles Jesus called. Once again, Jesus established His Church. It either survived in its pure form or it did not. If it did, no restoration is or was ever necessary. If it didn't, the only individual who is in a position to re-establish it is Jesus Christ himself.

 

[Katzpur]

Could I possibly be restoring His unfailing Church that He has established forever? Too much honor to me.

He didn't establish it forever. Peter and the other Apostles would not have understood His reference to the Gates of Hell not prevailing against it to mean that it would never fall into apostasy. That interpretation would have been totally foreign to them. Paul specifically prophesied that the Church would fall into apostasy and would be restored prior to the Second Coming of Christ.[/quote]

Hope you understand my point..

I think I do, and I would agree that being a follower of Christ is more important than any other label we might use to describe ourselves.

 

[Mykola]

Hello,

Firstly - I like your signature!

Well, since you brought up Matthew 16, may I suggest that you consider what verse 19 says: "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

I delighted to see those verses.
Do you know when Peter used those keys of the Kingdom?
His first sermon that started the Church - book of Acts - he opened it up. No mystical things behind it. Then, let's get down to your further arguments...

(1) Jesus Christ specifically gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter.

Yes, and Peter had used them.
By the way, I hope you don't imagine Jesus giving to Peter actual keys?

If they were lost,

Why's that? :areyoucra

and the authority which they represented needed to be restored, how do you get around the fact that Jesus Christ did not return to give them to whomever founded your church.

Obviously you're missing some point.
I'm not - we're not - restoring anything but the reverence to the Bible. We do try to follow Christ in our relationships with God. And what we Christians teach is taught by authority of Jesus Christ.

(2) How do you explain the need for a restoration of the primitive Church if you believe that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church Christ established?

Missing some point again.
Church is Body of Jesus Christ. It is not institution of men, so restoring it doesn't take anything but following the Bible in worshipping God (and in doing everything at all).

Or are you saying that the only requirement for restoring the primitive Church is to preach with confidence?

Obviously no. Whence that? Nor I claim to be restoring anything.
Church Christ bought with His own blood still does exist - it has been existing - and I'm a member of the Church. That's all

 

[Scuba Pete]

And if few thousand folks all decide they love Him and each of them "restores" His Church, wouldn't you expect them all to be teaching the same doctrines?

Well since you put it that way. Why yes! I would expect them to be teaching the same doctrines as Jesus. In fact we have Jesus' acid test for being a disciple:

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." NIV

I have not found any similar passage that tells us they will know us by ANY OTHER DOCTRINE. Do you?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Luke 7:36 Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37 When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38 and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."
40 Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.
41 "Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
43 Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.
44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49 The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." NIV

I have to wonder... on WHOSE authority did the woman pour the perfume on Jesus' feet and wash his feet with her tears??? What a waste of perfume that could have been SOLD to help the needy? Yet, we do not see our Lord rebuke her extravagance. Why is this? Love is authority enough. Jesus fulfilled all laws and left us with only two: Love God and Love everyone else.

Those who call themselves "Restorationists" have taken it upon themselves to WORSHIP God and Jesus in the traditions of the First Century church as recorded in the Scriptures we refer to as the "New Testament". If you can find anywhere in those Scriptures that specifically prohibits this, then please produce it. Until such time then, I wouldn't condemn acts of Love merely because you don't choose to love God and Jesus in that way.

 

[Quiddity]

He didn't establish it forever. Peter and the other Apostles would not have understood His reference to the Gates of Hell not prevailing against it to mean that it would never fall into apostasy. That interpretation would have been totally foreign to them. Paul specifically prophesied that the Church would fall into apostasy and would be restored prior to the Second Coming of Christ.

Oh boy how I disagree with this.... .
Not only on a scriptural and historic level, but also on a practical level on how human beings have ALWAYS had the tendency of screwing things up. I'm rather certain that God almighty knows us well enough to send the Holy Spirit to prevent such a fall. If he can do it in the 1800's he can do it back then..

 

[Katzpur]

Firstly - I like your signature!

Why thank you! I appreciate that.

Do you know when Peter used those keys of the Kingdom?
His first sermon that started the Church - book of Acts - he opened it up. No mystical things behind it.

I never implied that there was anything mystical about it.

By the way, I hope you don't imagine Jesus giving to Peter actual keys?

No, of course not. But what you do believe the word "keys" is intended to mean? I believe the keys represent the power and authority which Christ gave Peter to act in His name, to carry on the leadship of the Church He would establish. When a person has a key (I'm speaking of an actual key, now), he has access to something which is restricted. Someone who does not have a key is unable to open a door to a building or a lid to a box in which something valuable is found. The keys Christ gave to Peter would enable Him to perform the sacred ordinances (such as Baptism, Confirmation, Healings and Marriage) that were a part of the early Church. Obviously someone had to hold the power and authority that Christ gave to Peter, and would have to do so until Christ's return.

Why's that? :areyoucra

It's a fact that Paul and others prophesied of a falling away, which would come about as a result of the power and authority Peter held being lost. The question is, do you believe Paul's prophesy came to pass? I do, which is why I believe it had to be restored, and could be restored only by one person -- Jesus Christ.

Obviously you're missing some point. I'm not - we're not - restoring anything but the reverence to the Bible. We do try to follow Christ in our relationships with God. And what we Christians teach is taught by authority of Jesus Christ.

No, I'm not missing the point at all. We were talking about certain denomination which are categorized (at least on RF) as "Restorationists." There is a subforum on which they can be discussed in more detail. Restorationists believe that the original Church ceased to exist at some point in its history and that it has since been restored. My Church is one of these.

Missing some point again. Church is Body of Jesus Christ. It is not institution of men, so restoring it doesn't take anything but following the Bible in worshipping God (and in doing everything at all).

Again, you are the one missing the point. The Church is not an institution of men, but an institution established by Jesus Christ and built on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles. Paul said that this same organization must continue to exist until we all came into a unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, and that if this organization were to cease to exist, we would find Christ's Church split into many factions. This is precisely what happened. Today we have over 30,000 different Christian denominations, each differing from the others on at least a few points of doctrine.

Obviously no. Whence that? Nor I claim to be restoring anything.
Church Christ bought with His own blood still does exist - it has been existing - and I'm a member of the Church. That's all

Yes, I realize you don't claim to be restoring anything. Nor am I. But as I said before, I believe that the original Church fell into apostasy shortly after the deaths of the Apostles, that the keys of authority were taken from the earth BUT... that the Church has been restored to the earth again and the keys of authority given to Peter have also been returned to a living Prophet today.

 

[Katzpur]

Oh boy how I disagree with this.... .
Not only on a scriptural and historic level, but also on a practical level on how human beings have ALWAYS had the tendency of screwing things up. I'm rather certain that God almighty knows us well enough to send the Holy Spirit to prevent such a fall. If he can do it in the 1800's he can do it back then..

And how I disagree with your position, Victor! Are you ready for our one-on-one debate? This would make an excellent topic. We could limit it to four posts apiece so that it wouldn't go on forever. What you do say?

(Incidentally, it's not a matter of what God can or can't do. Why did He let Adam and Eve screw up? Why didn't He just prevent their Fall?)

 

[Quiddity]

And how I disagree with your position, Victor! Are you ready for our one-on-one debate? This would make an excellent topic. We could limit it to four posts apiece so that it wouldn't go on forever. What you do say?

Sounds good to me. Start it up....
Either way I still love ya...:hug:

 

[Katzpur]

Well since you put it that way. Why yes! I would expect them to be teaching the same doctrines as Jesus.In fact we have Jesus' acid test for being a disciple:

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." NIV

I have not found any similar passage that tells us they will know us by ANY OTHER DOCTRINE. Do you?

Yes, I know, Doc. The ONLY thing, in your opinion, that matters at all to Jesus is that we love one another. Problem is, while He clearly emphasized that His disciples would obey this commandment, He never, ever said that as long as we do this, nothing else matters. He established His Church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles. Why do you think He even bothered to do so if that's not the way He wanted it to function?

 

[Katzpur]

Sounds good to me. Start it up....

Yippee! I'll do that -- probably tomorrow sometime.

Either way I still love ya...:hug:

Likewise!

 

[Quiddity]

Yes, I know, Doc. The ONLY thing, in your opinion, that matters at all to Jesus is that we love one another. Problem is, while He clearly emphasized that His disciples would obey this commandment, He never, ever said that as long as we do this, nothing else matters. He established His Church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles. Why do you think He even bothered to do so if that's not the way He wanted it to function?

Stop sounding catholic...

 

[Scuba Pete]

Yes, I know, Doc. The ONLY thing, in your opinion, that matters at all to Jesus is that we love one another. Problem is, while He clearly emphasized that His disciples would obey this commandment, He never, ever said that as long as we do this, nothing else matters. He established His Church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles. Why do you think He even bothered to do so if that's not the way He wanted it to function?

Let's look at one of the LAST conversations he had with the "Head Apostle", Peter.

John 21:15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." 18 Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!" NIV

One would wonder, after looking at Jesus ministry of continual sacrifice, just what he meant when he told Peter to "Follow me!" ??? No, we don't have to delve very far from this verse to figure out how Peter would follow Jesus either:

"Feed my lambs." ​

"Take care of my sheep." ​

"Feed my sheep."​

This is nothing but LOVE with teeth in it. Real, sacrificial LOVE. Radical, put others ahead of you LOVE. Agape style love that makes you hurt for others.​

Romans 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. ​

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. NIV

The Beetles had it right: All you need is Love!

 

[Katzpur]

Doc, I don't dispute a word you've said -- until your last line...

The Beetles had it right: All you need is Love!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Well,

I did say it "tongue in cheek", as they were not talking about a Godly love.

 

[sojourner]

Oh, come on! So all you have to do is love Jesus Christ and you are authorized to restore the Church He established? And if few thousand folks all decide they love Him and each of them "restores" His Church, wouldn't you expect them all to be teaching the same doctrines? And wouldn't you expect those doctrines to be the same as the ones He taught? Love does not give anyone the authority to act in God's name or to speak on His behalf. It didn't in the primitive Church and it doesn't today. It sounds nice and all, but there is not a single passage of scripture to support such a notion.

God is love. Therefore, when one speaks or acts in love, one is speaking or acting in God's Name and on God's behalf ... whether one is part of, or recognized by, some "sanctioned" church or body.

Once again, Jesus established His Church. It either survived in its pure form or it did not. If it did, no restoration is or was ever necessary. If it didn't, the only individual who is in a position to re-establish it is Jesus Christ himself.

I think your viewpoint is a little myopic and legalistic. Jesus established the ecclesia -- the organism of the Body of Christ, not the human structural organization that propagates its own understanding of theology and praxis. Has ecclesia survived in its "pure" form? Well...we are still the Body of Christ, so I would say, "Yes!" Has the human organizational structure survived in its "pure" form? There never was a "pure" form. The Church has always changed with the changing of the humans that comprise that Church. No human organization can ever completely serve the expression of ecclesia. But...we do the best we can.

No restoration of ecclesia was, or is, necessary. But...from time to time, the organizational structure may need polishing and shoring up. I believe that Christ has sufficiently authorized some representative people to take care of this job.

 

[Scuba Pete]

No restoration of ecclesia was, or is, necessary. But...from time to time, the organizational structure may need polishing and shoring up. I believe that Christ has sufficiently authorized some representative people to take care of this job.

Ah... enter the "remnant".

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. NIV

BTW, most excellent response! Frubals on your head!

BTW #2, God almost ALWAYS works through a remnant. The FFOF as it were (Faithful Few On FIre). Do a word search for remnant on www.BibleGateway.com and be prepared for a fascinating study.

 

[sojourner]

Ah... enter the "remnant".

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. NIV

BTW, most excellent response! Frubals on your head!

BTW #2, God almost ALWAYS works through a remnant. The FFOF as it were (Faithful Few On FIre). Do a word search for remnant on www.BibleGateway.com and be prepared for a fascinating study.

I had an interesting conversation with a colleague about this subject. His church was only about 3% of the population locally and nationally. When I asked him whether he wished that the denomination were larger, he said, "Not really. Jesus said we are to be the salt of the earth. What happens when you get too much salt in your food?"

The trouble seems to start when the remnant gets uppity...