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Christian fundamentalism - What is it and is the term helpful?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
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I've always considered the prime element of fundamentalism to be the literal interpretation of the Bible; everything else being of secondary importance or at least something shared with other theologies.

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I agree biblical literalism is a prime element of fundamentalism. The Bible is seen as the inerrant word of God and certain passages are interpreted literally instead of a more modernist, liberal approach.

There are some important strands as to how fundamentalism originated which includes a 12-volume study called the Fundamentals, published 1910–1915. Sponsors subsidized the free distribution of over three million individual volumes to clergy, laymen and libraries. This work stressed several core beliefs, including:

  • The inerrancy of the Bible
  • The literal nature of biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles and the Creation account in Genesis.
  • The virgin birth of Christ
  • The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
  • The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross
For more details:
The Fundamentals - Wikipedia
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Fundamentalist interpretation starts from the principle that the Bible, being the word of God, inspired and free from error, should be read and interpreted literally in all its details. But by "literal interpretation" it understands a naively literalist interpretation, one, that is to say, which excludes every effort at understanding the Bible that takes account of its historical origins and development. It is opposed, therefore, to the use of the historical-critical method, as indeed to the use of any other scientific method for the interpretation of Scripture.

The fundamentalist interpretation had its origin at the time of the Reformation, arising out of a concern for fidelity to the literal meaning of Scripture. After the century of the Enlightenment it emerged in Protestantism as a bulwark against liberal exegesis.
The actual term <fundamentalist> is connected directly with the American Biblical Congress held at Niagara, N.Y., in 1895. At this meeting, conservative Protestant exegetes defined "five points of fundamentalism": the verbal inerrancy of Scripture, the divinity of Christ, his virginal birth, the doctrine of vicarious expiation and the bodily resurrection at the time of the second coming of Christ. As the fundamentalist way of reading the Bible spread to other parts of the world, it gave rise to other ways of interpretation, equally "literalist," in Europe, Asia, Africa and South America. As the 20th century comes to an end, this kind of interpretation is winning more and more adherents, in religious groups and sects, as also among Catholics.

Fundamentalism is right to insist on the divine inspiration of the Bible, the inerrancy of the word of God and other biblical truths included in its five fundamental points. But its way of presenting these truths is rooted in an ideology which is not biblical, whatever the proponents of this approach might say. For it demands an unshakable adherence to rigid doctrinal points of view and imposes, as the only source of teaching for Christian life and salvation, a reading of the Bible which rejects all questioning and any kind of critical research.

The basic problem with fundamentalist interpretation of this kind is that, refusing to take into account the historical character of biblical revelation, it makes itself incapable of accepting the full truth of the incarnation itself. As regards relationships with God, fundamentalism seeks to escape any closeness of the divine and the human. It refuses to admit that the inspired word of God has been expressed in human language and that this word has been expressed, under divine inspiration, by human authors possessed of limited capacities and resources. For this reason, it tends to treat the biblical text as if it had been dictated word for word by the Spirit. It fails to recognize that the word of God has been formulated in language and expression conditioned by various periods. It pays no attention to the literary forms and to the human ways of thinking to be found in the biblical texts, many of which are the result of a process extending over long periods of time and bearing the mark of very diverse historical situations.


The fundamentalist approach is dangerous, for it is attractive to people who look to the Bible for ready answers to the problems of life. It can deceive these people, offering them interpretations that are pious but illusory, instead of telling them that the Bible does not necessarily contain an immediate answer to each and every problem. Without saying as much in so many words, fundamentalism actually invites people to a kind of intellectual suicide. It injects into life a false certitude, for it unwittingly confuses the divine substance of the biblical message with what are in fact its human limitations.
excerpt from 'Interpretation of the Bible in the Church'
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
We used to have our own cognate to "fundamentalism" in Catholicism as well, although I don't remember it and neither do my parents, as it was pre-1960s Vatican II (I'm rather more of a spring chick than that).

My grandfather's generation cannot actually recall it either (he's in his late 80s) given that it was predominantly a continental affair, particularly in France with the Action Francaise movement. It never caught on in Britain where the church, since the late nineteenth century, has been aligned with the trade unionist and Christian socialist wing of thought.

However, I learned about this "sect" - if you can call it that, given its not really organised - from interactions with other Catholics online, who had come under the influence of this fossilized movement. For some inexplicable reason, it seems to have lingered on in a tiny intellectual-elitist academic subculture in America (which struck me as peculiar, given that the US Catholic church was never influenced by the original Anti-Modernist theology but actively resisted it at the time), where it's labelled "Integralism". A convert to Catholicism from Protestant Christianity, a Harvard law professor called Adrian Vermuele, is it's most infamous proponent today.

As with the Protestant variety, it didn't really exist as a coherent, grassroots phenomenon prior to the late nineteenth century, when the German theologians of the religionsgeschichtliche Schul at the University of Gottingen began to engage in textual historical criticism of the Bible.

Unlike the Protestant version, it also lasted for only a couple of decades into the 20th century before practically vanishing as an intellectual force after the Second World War (the world bishops of the Second Vatican Council condemned most of it's articles as heretical) and was never as "pervasive" given that we aren't a sola scriptura faith tradition (so we can't, by definition even at our most fundamentalist, be "bible-bashers").

In Catholicism the slow process of softening this new Anti-Modernist movement started with Pope Leo XIII promulgating the encyclical Providentissimus Deus in 1893, after authorizing the École Biblique in 1892, the first Catholic school specifically dedicated to the critical study of the bible.

The Anti-Modernist movement in the Catholic Church was, however, quashed by the Second Vatican Council from 1963-1965 under the progressive reforms of Pope St. John XXIII:

Second Vatican Council - Wikipedia

Today, those who still adhere to its principles are looked upon as akin to dinosaurs.

In 2011 Pope Benedict XVI condemned the ideology: "forms of religious integralism exploit religious freedom to disguise hidden interests, such as the subversion of the established order or the grip on power of a single group. Fanaticism, contrary to human dignity can never be justified, even less so in the name of religion."

Its contemporary adherents cloak their arguments under more subtle critiques of the barrenness of liberalism - both politically and economically. The reason is that they advocate “strategic raillement”: "working within the liberal order in order to eventually supersede it altogether with an integralist regime". Often they are economically "left-wing" - so-called "Tradinistas" - because they adopt the traditional Catholic critique of capitalism and laissez-faire as part of their rejection of "liberalism".

Integralism tends to have narrow focus on a series of encyclicals (namely by Gregory XVI, Pius IX, and Leo XIII) from the nineteenth century that critique elements of 'modernism', failing to place these in the wider context of the church's sacred tradition and earlier theological traditions. This distorts the tradition by elevating one particular, time-conditioned articulation of doctrine in a given, contingent historical context over against later development in a different one & earlier witnesses to the tradition that don't espouse this framework either.

The implication of their paradigm is that the state should be confessional. By contrast, Dignitatis Humanae (Vatican II's decree on freedom) affirms that: “the state exceeds the limits of its authority, if it takes upon itself to direct or to prevent religious activity.

And if we look to Pope Nicholas I in his directive to the Bulgars in 866 we find that he tells the Khan of those who refuse Christianity: "violence should by no means be inflicted upon them to make them believe. For everything which is not voluntary, cannot be good".

And earlier than him, the church father Tertullian in the 3rd century: "It is only just and a privilege inherent in human nature that every person should be able to worship according to his own convictions; the religious practice of one person neither harms nor helps another. It is not part of religion to coerce religious practice, for it is by choice not coercion that we should be led to religion."

He was the first person to articulate religious liberty as a "human right". The Emperor Constantine, first Christian ruler of Rome, then enshrined this in the Edict of Milan (313): "we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, or of that religion which he should think best for himself".

So I consider it to be a distortion of both the Catholic and Christian tradition with a very selective reading of history. Thankfully, it hardly exists today.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I do not see how the Baha'i can be fundamentalist (from what I know about you guys) because you promote what I see as an evolution of religion. You don't agree that religion must go back to the fundamentals, in fact to me you guys seem strongly against that to the point of not being able to comprehend how a person can stick to old teachings. Anti-fundamentalism seems to be one of Baha'i's core teachings to me, since you believe that different manifestations appear at different times with information relevant to their local era.

Its an interesting conversation and I'm mindful the Baha'i Faith does have its critics which will insist we are every bit as fundamentalist is some parts of Christianity and Islam. Obviously I would reject that criticism.

The Baha'i Faith sees itself as being the community representing the most recent Revelation from God through Baha'u'llah, the previous Revelations including those through Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Krishna and the Buddha. So it could be reasonably stated the Baha'is see Baha'u'llah as the recipient of God's Unerring Revelation in a similar manner to how the Muslims view the Quran and the Christians the Bible. Further, guidance continued after Baha'u'llah's passing through Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and then the Universal House of Justice.

So the New Wine replaces the Old Wine. However, Baha'i will point out that the New Wine explicitly teaches that if science establishes for certain a truth that contradicts religion, the science should be accepted. This is completely different from fundamentalism. In turn Critics will point out several examples Baha'is appear to contradict themselves (eg the virgin birth of Christ).

The new Baha'i Revelation teaches explicitly about the equality of men and women whereas Christianity and Islam have been male dominated. However our international governing body is composed of men only for reasons that can't be explained. So there are certain areas where the Baha'i Faith is vulnerable to criticism and so it has been accused of being a fundamentalist religion.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
According to one scholar, whose name I forget at the moment, fundamentalism in Christianity and in all other religions in which it's a thing, has in common several traits. The trait that I myself find so revealing about its core nature is that it is everywhere reactionary. And it's biggest reaction is to oppose modernity.
Yes, and more specifically, to the modern concept/revelation of relativism: of the relative nature of human perception and understanding. Fundamentalists are people who, for whatever reason, want or need to insist that their truth is THE truth, and so consider anyone who opposes that truth to be their enemy (as they are then the enemy of truth).
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
Its an interesting conversation and I'm mindful the Baha'i Faith does have its critics which will insist we are every bit as fundamentalist is some parts of Christianity and Islam. Obviously I would reject that criticism.

The Baha'i Faith sees itself as being the community representing the most recent Revelation from God through Baha'u'llah, the previous Revelations including those through Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Krishna and the Buddha. So it could be reasonably stated the Baha'is see Baha'u'llah as the recipient of God's Unerring Revelation in a similar manner to how the Muslims view the Quran and the Christians the Bible. Further, guidance continued after Baha'u'llah's passing through Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and then the Universal House of Justice.

So the New Wine replaces the Old Wine. However, Baha'i will point out that the New Wine explicitly teaches that if science establishes for certain a truth that contradicts religion, the science should be accepted. This is completely different from fundamentalism. In turn Critics will point out several examples Baha'is appear to contradict themselves (eg the virgin birth of Christ).

The new Baha'i Revelation teaches explicitly about the equality of men and women whereas Christianity and Islam have been male dominated. However our international governing body is composed of men only for reasons that can't be explained. So there are certain areas where the Baha'i Faith is vulnerable to criticism and so it has been accused of being a fundamentalist religion.

Your guys acceptance of science and viewpoint of the equality of men and women seems to me to be good enough reason not to call you guys fundamentalists.

Remember when we were discussing the use of the term "cult" as a prejorative? I think the same idea applies to their use of "fundamentalist" in this case.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Christian fundamentalism [...] argued that 19th-century modernist theologians had misinterpreted or rejected certain doctrines, especially biblical inerrancy [...]
Let me add to that this quote from The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) Graduate School, which could formerly be found on their website:

The Bible [...] is the divinely-inspired revelation of the Creator to man. Its unique, plenary, verbal inspiration guarantees that these writings, as originally and miraculously given, are infallible and completely authoritative on all matters with which they deal, free from error of any sort, scientific and historical as well as moral and theological.​

Biblical inerrancy is the key to the idea and to the problem of fundamentalism, for no better or worse reason that that the bible is full of what in 2020 are errors ─ bald, snarling, bad-breath errors, both of fact and of morals ─ well, certainly of my morals anyway.

Biblical cosmology, which is consistent throughout the Tanakh and the NT, reflects Babylonian cosmology. It says that the earth is flat and immovably fixed at the center of creation, that the heavenly bodies go round it, that the sky is a hard dome you can walk on, and to which the stars are attached such that if they come loose, they'll fall to earth, and so on. I set out particular quotes in which these views are set out >here<.

And biblical morality portrays God as commanding invasive war, seizure of the land of others, massacres of populations, mass rape, slavery, religious intolerance, forced abortion and infanticide, women as chattels, arbitrary killing and ─ not least ─ human sacrifice, of which there are at least four occasions in the Tanakh (two of which, the daughter of Jephthah in Judges 11, and the sons of Saul in 2 Samuel 21, are carried out), and one, also carried out, in the NT.

God inerrantly described as depraved monster, and no one seems to notice ...

The more abstract vice of fundamentalism is absolutism, the idea that truths can be absolute, despite the fact that over the years I've asked many people back in Beliefnet days, and here, for an example of an absolute moral statement, but never been shown one.

For such reasons and others, I'm opposed to teaching children fundamentalist beliefs. If they want to hear them after they've turned 21, fine.
What does Christian fundamentalism contribute both positively and negatively towards culture in the West?
My circle of friends has never included a fundamentalist, but years ago when my wife and I used to get into community projects, I worked along side one man from a fundy church who was in all respects a decent, capable, reliable citizen. I just wished he hadn't been teaching his children fundamentalism.

Going the other way, can you listen to eg Pat Robertson at any length? I never could.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
FYI the actor and director Mel Gibson is a member of one of these fundamentalist, anti-Modernist, integralist breakaway Catholic groups that were declared heretical by the Papacy after the Second Vatican Council:


Church of the Holy Family (Agoura Hills, California) - Wikipedia


Holy Family is a private, independent traditionalist Catholic chapel located behind a guarded gate at 30188 W. Mulholland Highway, Agoura Hills, California, United States. It is not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles. Its 70 or so members are traditional Catholics, including some that hold a sedevacantism position. They reject many or all of the reforms introduced by the Second Vatican Council and worship according to earlier Roman Catholic rites including the Tridentine Mass. [1]

Sedevacantism - Wikipedia


Sedevacantism is the position, held by some Catholics,[1][2] that the present occupier of the Holy See is not truly pope due to the mainstream church's espousal of what they see as the heresy of modernism and that, for lack of a valid pope, the See has been vacant since the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958.

Among those who maintain that the see of Rome, occupied by what they declare to be an illegitimate pope, was really vacant, some have chosen an alternative pope of their own, and thus in their view ended the vacancy of the see, and are known sometimes as "conclavists".[5]


The number of sedevacantists is largely unknown, with some claiming estimates of tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands.[6]

His dad took a small group of traditionalist Catholics - influenced by the French Vichy-inspired SSPX - into a schism from the Catholic Church around the time of Vatican II in the 1960s (hence the reason why we call them "sedevacantists") and Gibson was apparently raised in this sect.

They consider all popes since the 1960s to be "Masonic" infiltrators who are actually antipopes and regard the current liturgy of the Mass (the Novus Ordo) to be a Satanic, desolating sacrilege.


‘The Passion of the Christ,’ Mel Gibson and Hugging the Cactus – CatholicVote org


Adding to the muddle is Gibson’s, to put it mildly, confused relationship with the Catholic Church. Gibson’s father, Hutton Gibson, is a sedevacantist, one of a number of breakaway schismatic Catholics who reject Vatican II and don’t consider any popes after that to be legitimate (or worse, to be antipopes).

In 2010, British journalist Damian Thompson of the U.K. Telegraph outright said Gibson was a sedevacantist like his father and was “not a Roman Catholic.”

Gibson also paid for the construction of an independent chapel called the Church of the Holy Family, in Agoura Hills, Calif. It’s not affiliated with any Catholic archdiocese or with the Holy See and operates, reportedly with continuing support from Gibson, outside communion with the Church.

Apparently this is another problem for Hollywood, according to a piece that came out on the heels of the Deadline story, from the site Showbiz 411, with the headline “Mel Gibson Defense Omits His $70 Million Private Church That’s Anti-Pope, Modern Catholic Beliefs.”
 
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Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I grew up fundamentalist.

In our world, anyone who wasn't us, weren't Christian.

We were ardent and vocal opponent of humanism.

Another bugaboo for us was 'the traditions of men.' This was aimed at the Catholic Church and Judaism mostly. We rejected Apostolic Succession.

Also, often other religions that emphasized good deeds were accused of trying to earn their salvation by works of the flesh.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I’ve been reflecting on Christian fundamentalism, what it is and what it isn’t. Is the term helpful or is it more pejorative and used to create divisions? I live in New Zealand where we have a lot less Christians and religious fundamentalists than some other countries such as the USA. Every now and then I come across attitudes and behaviours from some Christian fundamentalists that appear harmful and disturbing.

As I was reflecting on a recent encounter on this forum with an American Christian whom I view as a fundamentalist, I thought it might be helpful to better understand what Christian fundamentalism is and isn’t. What is positive about Christian fundamentalism and what isn’t so good. What are the origins of this movement both in the USA and my country. Its a huge topic I know but an important one.

I’ll start off with what Wikipedia:

Christian fundamentalism began in the late 19th and early 20th centuries among British and American Protestants as a reaction to theological liberalism and cultural modernism. Fundamentalists argued that 19th-century modernist theologians had misinterpreted or rejected certain doctrines, especially biblical inerrancy, which they considered the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Fundamentalists are almost always described as having a literal interpretation of the Bible. A few scholars label Catholics who reject modern theology in favor of more traditional doctrines fundamentalists.Scholars debate how much the terms "evangelical" and "fundamentalist" are synonymous. In keeping with traditional Christian doctrines concerning biblical interpretation, the role of Jesus in the Bible, and the role of the church in society, fundamentalists usually believe in a core of Christian beliefs which include the historical accuracy of the Bible and all of the events which are recorded in it as well as the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Interpretations of Christian fundamentalism have changed over time. Fundamentalism as a movement manifested in various denominations with various theologies, rather than a single denomination or systematic theology. It became active in the 1910s after the release of The Fundamentals, a twelve-volume set of essays, apologetic and polemic, written by conservative Protestant theologians to defend what they saw as Protestant orthodoxy. The movement became more organized within U.S. Protestant churches in the 1920s, especially with Baptists and Presbyterians.

Many churches which embraced fundamentalism adopted a militant attitude with regard to their core beliefs and combined Princeton theology with Dispensationalism.Since 1930, many fundamentalist churches have been represented by the Independent Fundamental Churches of America(renamed IFCA International in 1996), which holds to biblical inerrancy.


Christian fundamentalism - Wikipedia

So are we any wiser or knowledgeable with this description?

What is Christian fundamentalism?

Is the term ‘Christian fundamentalist’ useful?

What does Christian fundamentalism contribute both positively and negatively towards culture in the West?

I think that in general, the term "fundamentalism" as it pertains to religious belief is very widely used to mean different things in different contexts.

We can try and define it till we are blue in the face trying to work out point what point what should or shouldn't be included. So I prefer a generic understanding as it is mostly used as a generic term.

And to me, that generic and very wide definition is as follows...
I apply it to anyone who, at least in some respect, insists on "literal" religious beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. Those who clinge to religious beliefs or rules or traditions, in spite of evidence to the contrary.

This can be about details or it can be about very big things.

For example... YEC is a very easy one to define as fundamentalist. That would be one of the "big things". These people give preference to certain literal interpretations of their beliefs and are required to deny / reject multiple entire scientific fields in order to uphold those beliefs.

An example of a smaller one would be holding radical beliefs regarding homosexuality "because the bible says..."

I guess that the way I use the term, is somewhat synonymous with "radicalism". And it seems to me that most people use it that way as well.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I live in New Zealand where we have a lot less Christians and religious fundamentalists than some other countries such as the USA.

Hmm.. are there still some unconverted animists that live there? As in perhaps tribal types of people who still worship the moon and the sun and such

As I was reflecting on a recent encounter on this forum with an American Christian whom I view as a fundamentalist, I thought it might be helpful to better understand what Christian fundamentalism is and isn’t.

As someone in the midwest, I definitely have known enough people that tick off the boxes in your post #21. Now we aren't known for religion as much as the south is, but from life experience here, the case probably can be made that we are just as good for it. I just think that maybe mid-westerners express it slightly differently, as often they are stuck in their homes for about half the year, and so they are then naturally less vocal or social with their beliefs. But if you were to ask any random ten people here if they had a strong belief in god, the majority would most likely answer in the affirmative

Perhaps some background on this area would be relevant to fortify my point. Here, we have towns that are surrounded on all sides by hundreds of miles of corn fields. 5 months of the year, you do not want to go outside, as it's a frozen desert. The biggest building in these towns often takes the form of a church, with gigantic hundred foot tall steeples. All of this is surely a recipe for the populace to incubate some serious theological inclination, while isolated by the insulation of the midwestern planescape. Indeed, the coastal america of international pop culture fame regards this place as something like 'medieval america,' where people are thought to have lifestyles and outlooks that emulate the middle ages. And largely, we do. The desperate fate-link between the mind and the gas pedal to navigate black ice and avoid a pile up, the obsequiousness of my rust belt factory job to droning ancient machine gears, the farmers who live where it's too dark to see their own hand at night, all this makes for an area which is fertile for superstition
 
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Igtheism

Rdwin McCravy
I sometimes use the term Evangelicals and Fundamentalists interchangeably. I shouldn't do that, but I do. Not all Evangelicals are Fundamentalists, although an exceedingly high percentage of them are.
I don't know any difference between the two words. What do evangelicals do or say that Fundamentalists don't, and vice-versa?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is Christian fundamentalism?

For me, it's the extreme on the spectrum of religious belief where scripture is believed literally. It's the maximum that one can be religious, and with it comes a dogmatic approach.

On the other end of the spectrum, as we see on RF with people like you, @Vouthon , @Dan From Smithville and many others, people seem to be minimally affected by religion. They say that they believe in a god, but are otherwise indistinguishable from secular humanists, for example. They respect reason, education, and social equality, which I don't get from the fundamentalists.

My apologies to anybody offended by being called indistinguishable from secular humanist. When I was a Christian, it was considered an insult to describe somebody as indistinguishable from an unbeliever. The pastor would deride parishioners for being too worldly if that was true. We were fundamentalists, and you were expected to be visibly Christian.

These days, I see it the other way around. I much prefer religious people that I cannot tell are religious.

Is the term ‘Christian fundamentalist’ useful?

Yes. You've been using it effectively.

What does Christian fundamentalism contribute both positively and negatively towards culture in the West?

I see no positive contributions, and a lot of negative ones. It's tribalistic, anti-intellectual, maximally dogmatic, promotes inequalities, and is often extreme (snake handling, suicide bombers).

The Bible [...] is the divinely-inspired revelation of the Creator to man. Its unique, plenary, verbal inspiration guarantees that these writings, as originally and miraculously given, are infallible and completely authoritative on all matters with which they deal, free from error of any sort, scientific and historical as well as moral and theological.

Our pastor wouldn't use the phrase divinely inspired. He taught that the Bible was authored by God, pointing out that inspiration implies a combination of sources - a little from one source and a little from another source, as with West Side Story, which was inspired by Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. Going by the movie alone, it's pretty hard to tell which parts were foreshadowed by Shakespeare and which were added later.

Romeo and Juliet were authored by Shakespeare. West Side Story was only inspired by Shakespeare, with an admixture of other input. The problem there is that if you have only West Side Story without Shakespeare's work, it's difficult to tell what comes from Shakespeare and what was added or modified. If the Christian Bible is only inspired by a deity, there is no way to tell which parts are of divine origin, and which are of human origin, which ought to tell us something about the quality of the divine contribution.

Another example. The Flintstones was inspired by The Honeymooners. If you are familiar with only the Flintstones, you wouldn't know that the Honeymooners was the source for the idea of a bigger, blowhard neighbor and a smaller, goofy neighbor, both with unskilled work, with wives that snickered at them and rolled their eyes at them, and the antics they get into. You wouldn't know that the modifications.

But did the Honeymooners work in a mine? No. Were they named Fred and Barney? No. Did either of them have a pet? No. Did they have children? No. Were they prehistoric people? No. In case you didn't know, the answer is yes in each case with the Flintstones.

Inspired by is too different from authored by for the latter to be useful by itself to distinguish the previous authored part of the inspired work from the additions, omissions, and modifications, which in this case, would be the human input.


Colorado Springs, where I live

I've been learning a bit about Colorado Springs lately watching a true crime show set there called Joe Kenda, Homicide Hunter. I'll bet you know where the Jim & I's Star Bar on Nevada is. Just saw the episode involving a biker gang shootout there.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
My apologies to anybody offended by being called indistinguishable from secular humanist. When I was a Christian, it was considered an insult to describe somebody as indistinguishable from an unbeliever

I'm thankful that the majority of us have long since moved on from exclusionary and prejudicial attitudes, like those you describe, towards neighbours holding different philosophical convictions from our own.

Far from being offended, I feel honoured to be described as indistinguishable from a secular humanist; as those so identifying tend, in my experience, to lead altogether exemplary lives characterised by high ethical standards. So it's a compliment to me!

I think the spirit of friendliness Pope Francis exhibited in his 2013 apostolic exhortation Evangelii Gaudium is the right and only true disposition that theists, like myself, should bear towards the atheist and irreligious community, and indeed to all communities of people:


Evangelii Gaudium : Apostolic Exhortation on the Proclamation of the Gospel in Today's World (24 November 2013) | Francis


257. As believers, we also feel close to those who do not consider themselves part of any religious tradition, yet sincerely seek the truth, goodness and beauty which we believe have their highest expression and source in God. We consider them as precious allies in the commitment to defending human dignity, in building peaceful coexistence between peoples and in protecting creation. A special place of encounter is offered by new Areopagi such as the Court of the Gentiles, where “believers and non-believers are able to engage in dialogue about fundamental issues of ethics, art and science, and about the search for transcendence”.[204] This too is a path to peace in our troubled world.


Note how he extends not only the right hand of friendship to the non-religious/atheistic but asks that we recognise one another as "precious allies" for many causes in today's world, for instance speaking up for human rights, international solidarity and in mitigating global warming / environmental degradation.

This has always been my personal understanding and not just the teaching of my religious leader. I was, however, much heartened at the time to hear him give voice to what I had already known, sincerely believed and practised with regards to my atheist family members, friends and colleagues.
 
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Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What is Christian fundamentalism?

The biggest issue I see with the word fundamentalism, it that different people might have different interpretations of what being a fundamentalism means.
All those people that we call fundamentalists are perfectly normal in their own eyes. I consider myself a normal christian but others might think I'm a fundamentalist for this or that reason. It's very subjective and in my opinion, too vague to be useful.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
What is Christian fundamentalism?

Is the term ‘Christian fundamentalist’ useful?

What does Christian fundamentalism contribute both positively and negatively towards culture in the West?

To me fundamentalism means that one has his arguments on foundation, arguments are based on something solid. Non-fundamentalism is like building house without any foundation.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
To me fundamentalism means that one has his arguments on foundation, arguments are based on something solid. Non-fundamentalism is like building house without any foundation.
The problem with this definition is that EVERYONE believes their arguments are based on foundation. You need a definition that can be applied across the board and will separate fundamentalists out from more mainstream groups. Try again.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Our pastor wouldn't use the phrase divinely inspired. He taught that the Bible was authored by God, pointing out that inspiration implies a combination of sources - a little from one source and a little from another source, as with West Side Story, which was inspired by Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. Going by the movie alone, it's pretty hard to tell which parts were foreshadowed by Shakespeare and which were added later.
Notwithstanding your impeccable reasoning, the fundies I've met on the net have been of the view that every word was inspired.

While I'm here, I'll set out the ICR quote in full, with the observation that they're Young Earth Creationists, which I think the logic of fundamentalism requires:

Tenets of Biblical Creationism

1. The Creator of the universe is a triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is only one eternal and transcendent God, the source of all being and meaning, and He exists in three Persons, each of whom participated in the work of creation.

2 The Bible, consisting of the thirty-nine canonical books of the Old Testament and the twenty-seven canonical books of the New Testament, is the divinely-inspired revelation of the Creator to man. Its unique, plenary, verbal inspiration guarantees that these writings, as originally and miraculously given, are infallible and completely authoritative on all matters with which they deal, free from error of any sort, scientific and historical as well as moral and theological.

3. All things in the universe were created and made by God in the six literal days of the creation week described in Genesis 1:1-2:3, and confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11. The creation record is factual, historical, and perspicuous; thus all theories of origins or development which involve evolution in any form are false. All things which now exist are sustained and ordered by God's providential care. However, a part of the spiritual creation, Satan and his angels, rebelled against God after the creation and are attempting to thwart His divine purposes in creation.

4. The first human beings, Adam and Eve, were specially created by God, and all other men and women are their descendants. In Adam, mankind was instructed to exercise "dominion" over all other created organisms, and over the earth itself (an implicit commission for true science, technology, commerce, fine art, and education) but the temptation by Satan and the entrance of sin brought God's curse on that dominion and on mankind, culminating in death and separation from God as the natural and proper consequence.

5. The Biblical record of primeval earth history in Genesis 1-11 is fully historical and perspicuous, including the creation and fall of man, the curse on the creation and its subjection to the bondage of decay, the promised Redeemer, the worldwide cataclysmic deluge in the days of Noah, the post-diluvian renewal of man's commission to subdue the earth (now augmented by the institution of human government) and the origin of nations and languages at the tower of Babel.

6. The alienation of man from his Creator because of sin can only be remedied by the Creator Himself, who became man in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, through miraculous conception and virgin birth. In Christ were indissolubly united perfect sinless humanity and full deity, so that His substitutionary death is the only necessary and sufficient price of man's redemption. That the redemption was completely efficacious is assured by His bodily resurrection from the dead and ascension into heaven; the resurrection of Christ is thus the focal point of history, assuring the consummation of God's purposes in creation.

7. The final restoration of creation's perfection is yet future, but individuals can immediately be restored to fellowship with their Creator, on the basis of His redemptive work on their behalf, receiving forgiveness and eternal life solely through personal trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, accepting Him not only as estranged Creator but also as reconciling Redeemer and coming King. Those who reject Him, however, or who neglect to believe on Him, thereby continue in their state of rebellion and must ultimately be consigned to the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.​
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I’ve been reflecting on Christian fundamentalism, what it is and what it isn’t.

What is Christian fundamentalism?

Is the term ‘Christian fundamentalist’ useful?

What does Christian fundamentalism contribute both positively and negatively towards culture in the West?

I don't mind fundamental believers or their views as long as they will never try to enforce their world on others. I don't think there are any extremist Christians here....... I'm not really thinking of the RF folks.

But if you want a real Christian extremist shocker of an experience then you could read up about these Christians, who want a New American Constitution with a Monarch, Judges, a Military, Armed police, Judicial sentencing as prescribed in the Old Testament with painful public executions for many crimes from adultery to homosexuality and all other capital offences, flogging up to forty lashes, and fines. Women to be kept out of any of the official jobs etc.

For the full horrors of Christian extremism you would need to visit the Christian extremist forums, and you'll be shocked to your socks. To give you an idea of what the extremist Christian World could look like, try reading about it....

Biblical Apologetic for America's Constitutional Monarchy | Listen ...
www.listennotes.com › ...

Bob Enyart and Doug McBurney discuss KGOV's Biblical Apologetic, below, for The Proposed Constitution of America. The founding fathers, the David Bartons ...

Christian media personality/pastor wants to Fundamentally ...
www.intellectualconservative.com › christian-media-per...

15 Jan 2020 - Image result for bob enyart Image result for monarchy. Let's face it, the ... For now here are some excerpts from Enyart's New Constitution:.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I’ve been reflecting on Christian fundamentalism, what it is and what it isn’t. Is the term helpful or is it more pejorative and used to create divisions? I live in New Zealand where we have a lot less Christians and religious fundamentalists than some other countries such as the USA. Every now and then I come across attitudes and behaviours from some Christian fundamentalists that appear harmful and disturbing.

As I was reflecting on a recent encounter on this forum with an American Christian whom I view as a fundamentalist, I thought it might be helpful to better understand what Christian fundamentalism is and isn’t. What is positive about Christian fundamentalism and what isn’t so good. What are the origins of this movement both in the USA and my country. Its a huge topic I know but an important one.

There are always bad apples when we are dealing with million so people. And, apparently, you ran across some of those type of people.

But I agree that it is more pejorative and used to create divisions.

Many churches which embraced fundamentalism adopted a militant attitude with regard to their core beliefs

Like this statement What is "many"? What is a "militant attitude"? Is the author of this Wikipedia definition creating division and is he, in some sense, militant in his approach to fundamentalism?

In today's culture, Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Conservative, Christian, Fundamentalist etc are mostly used as weapons of division. (there are exceptions)
 
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