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Christian: Iron Grip!
- Thread starter precept
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Chris said:
If I understand correctly the philosophy as perpetrated by those Christians who Cannot be lost once they have proclaimed belief in Jesus as Saviour of mankind....that they can never be lost after so affirming their belief in Jesus...then they are in fact in an Iron Clasp from which they cannot be torn even if they themselves would wish to be free from the IRON GRIP of salvation.
No one can free them from the Iron Grip of salvation...No! not even can they voluntary free themselves if they now wished "salvation" for themselves no more!". They are in its death grasp whether they want to be or not!
precept
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Sure he should... we all have Bibles. He want us to focus on one aspect of this verse and that's OK. Here is the verse in situ with the verse inquestion emboldened:
John 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
For me it means that only I can seperate me from the love of Christ. No one can pull me away without my active desire and consent.
John 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
For me it means that only I can seperate me from the love of Christ. No one can pull me away without my active desire and consent.
That's not the point. I could pull half of any scripture verse out of the Bible and post it, and then argue that God hates every person on the planet and simply has us here for His delight in torturing us.
That's basically the method Satan used to tempt Christ, isn't it?
And this isn't necessarily true at all times. Mostly when the topic is contoversial, as this one is. It' just plain sloppy and irresponsible to lay the question out like that.
So now the Jury rests: If the sinner who voluntarily places his eternal life in the Loving nail scarred Hands of his Saviour decides to voluntarily remain in His Loving Embrace there he is welcome to remain for ever!....Nothing! No one can take him away; as long as he chooses there to remain.
Like a sheep he has found his Shepherd; and like a sheep once he has found his shepherd; his will his shepherd be for its entire life. There will never be any reason to even think of having another shepherd. The sheep knows that his shepherd will provide for its every need; and so the sheep will "never want". The sheep is eternally secure in the embrace of his shepherd as it eats peacefully on the tableland of succulent green grass while its predator foe is kept at bay by his ever watchful shepherd....The sheep is at peace even in the presence of its enemies. And if and when the sheep strays and slips and is lost as the herd grazes on without missing that one lost sheep. The lost sheep grazes on unmindful that it is lost; but then soon realizes it is lost and calls out for its shepherd. Instinctively the shepherd counts his sheep and discovers one is missing....he quickly gathers his sheep in a protective enclosure and sets out to find his lost sheep. The sheep though lost does not seek another shepherd. It knows just one..and only that shepherd it now seeks. It is soon found, weak and bleeding from wounds derived when it slipped. The shepherd anoints the bruised head of the sheep with oil Oh, with so much oil that the wounds of the sheep are soothingly medicated. For the sheep, his care is so good "its cup runneth over".
The sheep is having it so good...he is not going anywhere...because the sheep knows that his shepherd's "goodness and mercy will follow it" as long as it chooses to remain the sheep of his shepherd. And so the sheep decides to remain and "dwell in the house of his shepherd forever".
Because of the Loving experience enjoyed by every sheep of our Loving Saviour; we can all say "who can separate us from so much love"? Who would want to be separated from so much love? Would any amount of sinful attractions lure us away from so much love? Would any amount of worldly fame lure us away from so much love? Would any "Principality or Power" lure us away from so much love? Would any height of any sort of glory lure us away from so much love? Would any depth of despair make us not want to bask anymore in His Love? Would any present event of any sort or any future event of any sort make us not want to remain anymore in his Loving embrace? OR is there anything, ANYTHING, that we know of that would be more Loving, and more accomodating, and more Forgiving, so much so that we would to transfer our undying affection to another shepherd!
The "Iron Grip" is the grip of the sheep on its shepherd as it refuses to be separated for any reason, from the shepherd who would lovingly forfeit his own life for any single one of his sheep. But only a sheep would want to grip its shepherd so
Lovingly Tight...a goat on the other hand is the one that needs to held in chains or it will voluntarily stray. The sheepour Saviour says He puts on his right hand......the goats our Saviour says He puts on the left. the sheep our Saviour says are the saints of His kingdom-His bride. The goats are fodder for the fires of hell
precept
Like a sheep he has found his Shepherd; and like a sheep once he has found his shepherd; his will his shepherd be for its entire life. There will never be any reason to even think of having another shepherd. The sheep knows that his shepherd will provide for its every need; and so the sheep will "never want". The sheep is eternally secure in the embrace of his shepherd as it eats peacefully on the tableland of succulent green grass while its predator foe is kept at bay by his ever watchful shepherd....The sheep is at peace even in the presence of its enemies. And if and when the sheep strays and slips and is lost as the herd grazes on without missing that one lost sheep. The lost sheep grazes on unmindful that it is lost; but then soon realizes it is lost and calls out for its shepherd. Instinctively the shepherd counts his sheep and discovers one is missing....he quickly gathers his sheep in a protective enclosure and sets out to find his lost sheep. The sheep though lost does not seek another shepherd. It knows just one..and only that shepherd it now seeks. It is soon found, weak and bleeding from wounds derived when it slipped. The shepherd anoints the bruised head of the sheep with oil Oh, with so much oil that the wounds of the sheep are soothingly medicated. For the sheep, his care is so good "its cup runneth over".
The sheep is having it so good...he is not going anywhere...because the sheep knows that his shepherd's "goodness and mercy will follow it" as long as it chooses to remain the sheep of his shepherd. And so the sheep decides to remain and "dwell in the house of his shepherd forever".
Because of the Loving experience enjoyed by every sheep of our Loving Saviour; we can all say "who can separate us from so much love"? Who would want to be separated from so much love? Would any amount of sinful attractions lure us away from so much love? Would any amount of worldly fame lure us away from so much love? Would any "Principality or Power" lure us away from so much love? Would any height of any sort of glory lure us away from so much love? Would any depth of despair make us not want to bask anymore in His Love? Would any present event of any sort or any future event of any sort make us not want to remain anymore in his Loving embrace? OR is there anything, ANYTHING, that we know of that would be more Loving, and more accomodating, and more Forgiving, so much so that we would to transfer our undying affection to another shepherd!
The "Iron Grip" is the grip of the sheep on its shepherd as it refuses to be separated for any reason, from the shepherd who would lovingly forfeit his own life for any single one of his sheep. But only a sheep would want to grip its shepherd so
Lovingly Tight...a goat on the other hand is the one that needs to held in chains or it will voluntarily stray. The sheepour Saviour says He puts on his right hand......the goats our Saviour says He puts on the left. the sheep our Saviour says are the saints of His kingdom-His bride. The goats are fodder for the fires of hell
precept
Precept,
Notice just a couple of Scriptures later Jesus even said his followers were as if in His Fathers had also, and that no one could remove his followers from God's hand.
This means that they are completely safe for eternal life, as long as they remain in God's grace.
There are several Scriptures that let us know that we can fall away from God, and also could be drawn away, Hebrews 2:1, 3:12-14. Consider also 1Corinthians 9:27, 2Corinthians 13:5, Colossians 1:21-23. At 1Corinthians chapter 10, we have the principle of being in God's favor, but then falling away and being killed for that, 1Corinthians 10:1-12.
Think about this; all the Isrealites were in a Covenant relationship with God, in a saved condition, but because of becoming unfaithful, God caused them to be punished, killed for turning away from the One True God.
One other point, consider Hebrews 10:26-29, which tells us that there is no longer a sacrifice for us, if we keep doing something wrong, after being waned about the sin.
I believe that if you are a true child of God, with unshakable faith, and true devotion to the One True God, the Father,
you WILL be able to withstand the fiery darts of all those false prophets and their leader, satan. God will not let you fall.
You will forever be held secure in the palm of His hands.
ronandcarol
ronandcarol,
The Scriptures at John 10:28,29, are telling us that nothing or no one can take you from God's hands. Does that mean that you are then saved forever, no matter what you do??? Definitely NOT!!! Once we have been saved, we then must continue to follow the teachings of God's word. The terms, Apocatastasis, Universalism, are totally false!!!
Consider some of the things the Bible says, 2Corinthians 13:5, which says to test yourselves to make sure you are in the faith. 1Corinthians 9:27, where Paul is telling how he tries to make sure that after he has preached to others, he is not rejected. Paul was the most important teacher of Christianity. Hebrews tells us that we can even drift away, Hebrews 2:1, and fall away, Hebrews 3:12. Remember, Jesus said that we MUST endure to the end, to be saved, Matthew 10:21,22, Matthew 24:13, 1Corinthians 10:1-12.
This principle is also mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures, Ezekiel 3:18-21, 18:21-24, 33:13.
Agape!!!