Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

[keevelish]

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. 9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation.

Let's pick this apart...vs 4-6 is talking about a hypothetical situation- SHOULD believers be able to lose their salvation, if they were to come to repentance AGAIN and get saved once again, they would subject what Jesus did on the cross to shame. He died ONCE to overcome death ONCE and therefore, we are saved ONCE. This is explaining why we can not lose our salvation. If we did, then we would need to get saved again, and therefore we would make what Jesus did on the cross an INCOMPLETE work.

vs 7-8 is speaking about a believer's fruits of the holy spirit- we produce good works as a result of our faith in Jesus to serve God. When we get to the Bema seat, our works will be judged. Good works will bring reward to believers (blessing of God). The thorns and thistles (bad works) will be cursed, and burned- NOT the believer in hell, but the works which will be "tried by fire" (1 Cor 3:13-15).

vs 9- If you look in the end of Hebrews chapter 5 and beginning of chapter 6, the author is desiring to move on to more advanced things. He no longer wishes to speak on the basics of Christianity- the Christians should already know these things. He has higher hopes for their walk with God. It was necessary to bring them back and REBUKE them of their flirting with the false gospel that the Judaizers were preaching. After that, he admonishes them and hopes to move on to better things, and exhort them in their Christian walk.

 

[precept]

The preacher is not saved, especially if he is preaching another gospel. The "preachers" were Judaizers! People who wanted to pervert the gospel so that what Jesus did on the cross wasn't enough, that one had to do WORKS along with salvation. This is PRECISELY the issue that Paul is condemning here. He is condemning a false gospel of salvation affected by works.

If you look at today's conglomeration of professed Christianity- there are MANY swayed by perverted teachings, such as you can lose your salvation, for starters. This does not mean that those, after becoming saved, then going to a bad church, where there is a bad preacher and hear that they can lose their salvation, really DO lose their salvation. Those who are preaching another gospel ARE NOT SAVED to begin with. They don't know what being saved really means. There was NO condemnation on the part of those who were LISTENING to the false gospel.

Keevelish: one must needs be careful that the "perverted teacher" may not know that he of whom he speaks may be himself...."For it is impossible FOR THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST and have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF God, and the powers of the world to come" ..... Who may you suppose the foregoing refer to? Pagans? No! "backsliding Christian Jews? No! Those who previously had accepted of the Holy Ghost? Yes! Those who previously had believed in Christianity? Yes!...IF THEY FALL AWAY! Or stop believing in Christianity!...to renew them again unto repentance...Or bring them back to beleiving in Christianity.... SEEING THEY CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH and put Him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6

Who now is the preacher of the false gospel?


Who puts Jesus to an open shame?


Are you still saying that those who were once "saved" "enlightened" were never "saved" enlightened" in the first place! If you so say...you then are more inspired than the apostle Paul. If you instead say they were "once enlightened" as Paul says....and that they "crucify afresh the Son of God" as all unrepentant sinners do...then you are also saying that those who once believed in Christ do so no more and hence have joined again the kingdom of satan! Those in the kingdom of satan will be lost; unless they repent.


precept

 

[Scuba Pete]

I have no clue how you derive a "hypothetical" situation out of that. It surely was not couched in "hypothetical" terms.

But you choose to believe what you want. I will stick to the scriptures, without "picking them apart". I like them just the way they are.

 

[keevelish]

I'm quite sure that neither on of you have read the above scriptures carefully, or my explanations of them. Precept, if you look carefully at Galations 1:6, it reads "Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ." The "some people" are NOT the Christians, the are the JUDAIZERS. The Judaizers are the ones perverting the gospel and throwing the Christians ("you") into confusion. As it says in the verse, the ones who are doing the PERVERTING are the ones condemned. It is obvious that if they are PERVERTING the gospel, they themselves (the judaizers) ARE NOT SAVED.

And net doc, why do you suppose what Jesus did on the cross is brought to disgrace all over again? If it goes in line with what you say, you can lose your salvation and such , and that would assume you can get it again, why would that shame Jesus? The author does say it hypothetically "IF they fall away, to be brought back to repentance." He's saying that SHOULD they lose their salvation, and SHOULD they get saved again, what is the point of SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE? WHY DID JESUS DIE THE PERFECT SACRIFICE? WHY DIDN'T WE JUST KEEP THE OLD SYSTEM? This is what the Judaizers were trying to do- they were persectuting the Christian Jews and belitteling what Jesus did on the cross. If what he did was SOOO perfect, salvation is a PERFECT work. If you can lose your salvation, then we don't have an almighty God. That was the WHOLE POINT of chapter 1 in Hebrews.

But to point out something else, the Bible also does say that the unsaved can't understand spiritual things.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I'm quite sure that neither on of you have read the above scriptures carefully, or my explanations of them.

I guess you are used to being wrong by now. The Judaizers were Jewish Christians that were laying additional works on the Gentile Christians. They believed that you had to obey the law AND Jesus. Like you, they twisted the scriptures by "picking them apart" in order to justify their beliefs.

Keevelish... I have presented the scriptures to you. You have either rejected them or twisted them. There is nothing more for me to do. As I said, you are free to believe in error all you want. I did what I could, and hopefully the eyes of your heart will be opened to the Spirit's teachings on day.

 

[precept]

Let's pick this apart...vs 4-6 is talking about a hypothetical situation- SHOULD believers be able to lose their salvation, if they were to come to repentance AGAIN and get saved once again, they would subject what Jesus did on the cross to shame. He died ONCE to overcome death ONCE and therefore, we are saved ONCE. This is explaining why we can not lose our salvation. If we did, then we would need to get saved again, and therefore we would make what Jesus did on the cross an INCOMPLETE work.

In your above example...the believer was once a "follower of Christ" eg; Judas one of Christ disciples...."And Judas went and hanged himself" Judas is called the "son of perdition" by Jesus. Another example is Demas Paul's convert to Christianity....In Paul's words..." For Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world"...2 Timothy 4:10

Using your above musings...would you say whether Judas and or Demas lost the salvation they once embraced by apostascizing? Or were they never saved in the first place? As I am sure you are saying..And which if you so say..you make Paul as being sorry that an "unbeliever" who continued persisting in "unbelief"; and whose "unbelief" had never been relinquished while making Paul believe he was a believer. You make Paul as saying that he Paul was sorry that Demas hadn't continue to "fake it" and remain with him while still a "faker"... And you make Jesus as saying that as the ALL KNOWING GOD he didn't know that he had chosen an "unbeliever" when He chose Judas as His disciple...Or better yet that Jesus knew that He was choosing an repentant "devil" when he chose Judas.

Keevelish, what you and others who wrongly interpret scripture do not understand, is that the gospel of salvation reaches even to the depths of hell to retrieve each and any sinner who chooses to repent. The gospel is powerless against any sinner who "returns to his own vomit" as Judas and Demas did; because they refuse to repent; but it is most powerful in embracing again the sinner who "rejects the enticement to remain in his former vomit". as the gospel did for Peter when he "lied" about his being a follower of Jesus...as it did for the prostitue, Mary; who carressed the feet of very God; and who enjoyed His forgiveness as he rebuked Simon who thought that he was a privileged follower of Jesus.

The gospel is not about "who is in and who is out". The gospel is about all who refuse to "continue in sin that Grace may abound" ...Paul..Romans 6:1

Christ died for the sins of humanity....Not for the sinful human person! Only for the "SINS" OF THE SINFUL HUMAN PERSON!

If and when such a sinful human person rejects the Christ He once embraced; he also rejects the salvation the Saving Christ offered.
If, like the "prodigal son" the sinful human repents and returns to the Christ he once embraced...In Christ's words "I will in no wise cast out". How many times will He in "no wise cast out"? till seventy times! No till seventy times seven"! Christ is never tired of of reclaiming the repentant sinner no matter how many times the repentant sinner sincerely repents.

The gospel of salvation is not a "one suit fits all"/"Once saved always saved"...as if this is a formula for eternal life. No! The gospel of salvation is the eradication of sin in God's universe; and the eradication of all those who persist in sinning against Him. He loves all who are sorry when they sin; and who acknowledge their sin and ask for repentance...and He loves them the more when they forsake alltogether their former life of sin. He is sorry when they "slide again" into their former life of sin; but will never reject them if and when they return to serving Him...NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES THEY RETURN to Him they would have made the death of His Son worth every agonizing moment He spent on the cross dying for the sins of humanity!

BUT! if they choose not to return they will experience the "WRATH OF GOD WHICH IS POURED OUT WITHOUT MIXTURE IN THE CUP OF HIS INDIGNATION; AND THEY WILL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB." Revelation 14:10


precept

 

[keevelish]

the 'seventy- times seven" bit is about people forgiving people... and of course Christ died for the sins- ALL of them, PAST and FUTURE

just like the Lord says "no man will pluck him out of my hand," this means any man- including the believer himself- it's surprising how many people over look this statement.

Do you really think that you are so powerful that anything YOU can do can override what Christ has said? He must not be that almighty in your eyes then.

 

[keevelish]

Please: do explain the definition of ETERNAL

and its interesting to note: the same word is used to describe our ETERNAL God. If salvation ceases to be eternal, then our God ceases to exist. Because he is obviously NOT eternal, just as his salvation is not eternal.

 

[keevelish]

Keevelish... I have presented the scriptures to you. You have either rejected them or twisted them. There is nothing more for me to do. As I said, you are free to believe in error all you want. I did what I could, and hopefully the eyes of your heart will be opened to the Spirit's teachings on day.

likewise, I say the same to you

 

[true blood]

Yep once saved always saved, even through murder and partying. Scott do you truly believe if in your weakness you murder someone, God will take back what he has given you? If you believe this then I pity you. Have you not been bought with a price? The fact is that men, ever since the beginning, has tried to work out his own righteousness and tried to do work which would make himself look good in the sight of God. So many do all kinds of work to obtain righteousness, such as confessing their sins, teaching bible school and keeping the ten commandments. I bet you think you look good in the sight of God by visiting these forums daily. However NONE of these make a person righteous. It is only obtained from God through the faith of Jesus Christ. Your tears, toils and all your measly prayers will avail you nothing. Every sin problem like murder has been settled in Jesus Christ. I agree that once a sinner accepts Jesus Christ as Lord, he/she must renew their minds in order to believe he is righteous, and as a son of God he will no longer worry, fear, or feel unworthy. Sounds to me like you have a fear that if you go party somewhere you will be unworthy. You have not renewed your mind therefor you are subject to this type of negative believing. If you are not confident that you are worthy through Jesus Christ than you live in error.

Also its very important to remember that Christ died for us, not when we were good enough, but when we were bad enough to need Him. And in making us righteous, Jesus Christ also spared us from future tribulation. A key verse is I John 3:20, 21: For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

 

[Nick Soapdish]

This is a very interesting thread for me. I have to admit, I have been taught OSAS. My suspicion is that the realities that exist within judgement, redemption, retribution and related topics are not so simple that they can be easily understood from the perspective we are given from this world. Jesus almost always explained such topics with allegory. The message of how we are to live our lives is quite clear, but the mechanics of salvation are not specified.

In the end, I believe that even if someone has faith, that person still has reason to fear God.

 

[prosecutor]

Having been out of town a few days due to a death in the family, I am a litle behind in this post. In Post No.67 I have not seen that observation really dealt with. You can not place Scripture against Scripture and prove anything. What I mean by that, the Bible cannot both teach "once saved always saved" and at the same time teach "a child of God can so sin as to lose his or her soul eternally." Having been dealing with this subject for more than thirty years now I have learned a little about it. I sure don't know it all or claim to know everything but this doesn't mean I don't know some things. One of the things I learned years ago is that "words" should be understood in their normal usages unless the context demands differently. You cannot have an intelligent discussion and allow people to make up their own definitions of the meaning of words. When I used the word "apostasy" I used it by its normal meaning. It means "to fall away from." To try and argue that (a) "people who fall away were never saved to begin with" (b) "people may fall away and God may punish them in some way but this does not mean they will lose their souls eternally" or (c) the word apostasy can have other meanings", represents the desperation of those who hold to the osas position. In dealing with false doctrines over the years I can say honestly (not arrogantly) this doctrine is by far one of the easiest to refute. To give you a few short examples, the wording in the King James Version of Hebrews 6:6 reads "If they shall fall away...." The word "if" is not in the Greek text. When the American Standard Version came out in 1901 they made this correction which reads "and fell away". This text will not help the osas advocates but in fact prove them wrong. Second, the statements Jesus made in John 10:27-29. The verbs "hear", "know", and "follow" (verse 27) are all present tense. Who is it that Jesus "keeps on giving eternal life to" and "who will never perish" (verse 28)? His sheep! Who are "His sheep"? Those (a) who keep on hearing His voice and (b) keep on following Him. The question that must be answered is, "Can His sheep stop hearing His voice and can they stop following him?" This passage deal with faithfulness and its results. To use this as proof that a child of God can never so sin as to be lost eternally is to corrupt the meaning of the text. You cannot force a meaning in order to slavage your position.
Prosecutor

 

[Scott1]

Yep once saved always saved, even through murder and partying. Scott do you truly believe if in your weakness you murder someone, God will take back what he has given you? If you believe this then I pity you. Have you not been bought with a price?

Well, that's good to know true blood..... I guess you can stop wasting your time posting in Christian threads.... we're saved no matter what..... phew, this clean living has been a drag, it's nice to know I'm going to heaven no matter what.

I agree that once a sinner accepts Jesus Christ as Lord, he/she must renew their minds in order to believe he is righteous, and as a son of God he will no longer worry, fear, or feel unworthy.

Why must I renew my mind..... faith in Christ is enough.... or it is not enough. Choose.

If you are not confident that you are worthy through Jesus Christ than you live in error.

I am not worthy, but by Christ alone am I saved.... but, you're talking about something else:

You think that once I confess faith in Jesus, I am saved.... and that nothing can take that away..... NOTHING.

• I don't need a renewal.
• I don't need good works.
• I don't need confidence in Christ.
• I don't need charity.
• I don't need love.

I just need faith.... and heaven is mine.... and even I could not change that if I wanted to, right?

Don't pity me, true blood..... I'm going to heaven!:162:

 

[Scott1]

Having been out of town a few days due to a death in the family,

My prayers are with you and your family.

Scott

 

[Dadball]

<H5><H5><H5>Once Saved Always Saved?
To quote the Beatles "All You Need Is Love"

Matthew 22:34-40
Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”



Mark 12:28-34

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

“The most important one” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.



Luke 10:25-37

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” He answered: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”



John 15:9-17

“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This is my command: Love each other



1 Corinthians 13

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not selfseeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

</H5></H5></H5>

 

[angel888]

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [[size=-1]1 John 3:19–24[/size][size=-1]]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven.[/size]
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[size=-1] There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" ([/size][size=-1]Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21[/size][size=-1]).[/size]
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"I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ ([size=-1]Phil. 2:12[/size][size=-1]), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me." [/size]
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[size=-1]What the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone which is what "Bible Christians" teach.![size=-1]

When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love ([/size][size=-1]Gal. 6:2[/size][size=-1]).[/size][/size]
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[size=-1][size=-1]Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. "Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but do not do the things I command?" ([size=-1]Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21–23, 19:16–21[/size][size=-1]).[/size][/size][/size]
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[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]Angel888[/size]


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[precept]

I'm quite sure that neither on of you have read the above scriptures carefully, or my explanations of them. Precept, if you look carefully at Galations 1:6, it reads "Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ." The "some people" are NOT the Christians, the are the JUDAIZERS. The Judaizers are the ones perverting the gospel and throwing the Christians ("you") into confusion. As it says in the verse, the ones who are doing the PERVERTING are the ones condemned. It is obvious that if they are PERVERTING the gospel, they themselves (the judaizers) ARE NOT SAVED.

But to point out something else, the Bible also does say that the unsaved can't understand spiritual things.

Keevelish I wll address your last statement in this wise.
It is certainly true as you state.

Galatians 1:6 does make the point that a perverted form of Christianity was being taught the Galatian Christians. The term "Anti-Christs" was given to those who taught this perverted form of Christianity. These "anti-Christs" as the apostle John makes plain used to be Christians["they went out from among us] 1 John 2:18-19...John states clearly that these who had formerly believed as they, in Jesus as Saviour, now believed and taught a different gospel. These former believers, who as John puts it "went out from asmong us" and who no more believed as John and the rest of Christ's community of believers believed, are called by John "Anti-Christs". It is these former believers who certainly will not be saved unless they repent.

Your argument about "Judaizers" is without merit. A "Judaizer" is not in apostacy with respect to the original gospel as preached by Jesus and His disciples. A Judaizer was a Christian who still thought like Peter and the rest of Christ's disciples, except for Paul, that the laws of Judaism were still binding on all Jews. It was this group of Christian Jews who decided to challenge Paul's interpretation of the gospel--an interpretation by Paul that made it unnecessary for anyone- Christian Jew or Christian Gentile , to keep the laws of Judaism. The Judaizers were committed to opposing Paul on this issue; hence Paul's letter to the Hebrews in which he spelled out the meaning of the laws as they applied till Christ came; who, having fulfilled the intent of all of God's laws, made their keeping unnecessary in order to please God as was formerly the case.

Read the account of this debate in Acts chapters 15 and 21...you will be enlightened accordingly in that Paul while he taught that the keeping of Judaism's laws was unnecessary, yet he followed the advice given to him by the official church in Jerusalem run by all of Jesus's disciples to honor Judaism's laws by himself demonstrating that he also "keepest the law"

The above account makes it quite clear that all the disciples of Christ together with the "many thousands of Jews" that were converted to Christianity...Still kept Judaism's laws. Acts 12:24 ...hence Paul's dispute with the Judaizers was a debate on the issue of whether Christian Jews and Gentiles should still keep Judaism's laws while still embracing Christ's Christianity. This was not a condemnation of Paul's against the Judaizers as so many without understanding in the scripture, erroneously think.
Read Acts 11:2 about "They of the circumcision" who were also Chrisitan Jews and who were also disciples of Christ....and also read Galatians 2:11-12, where Paul contented with the same Peter whom God had previously told to go into the house of the Gentile Cornelius; but the same Peter who was still following Jewish laws to "not associate with Gentiles"...a law as Peter still followed in "not associating with the new Gentile converts"; and for which Peter was sternly rebuked by Paul!

The contention of the book of Hebrews written not only for the benefit of the Hebrew nation; but also for the benefit of all of the Christian Jews who now believed in Christ but who also still thought it was still compulsory to practice all of the laws and ceremonies of Judaism.... It is to their misunderstanding; as well as to the misunderstanding of Jesus's disciples- who had misunderstood the laws of Judaism and their relationship to the sacrifice of Grace of our Lord and SaviourPeter is also included as not understanding this relationship- It is to this misunderstanding that is addressed the entire book of Hebrews.

. "He that hath an ear to hear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".


precept

 

[precept]

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” He answered: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” [/font]

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers.

As can be seen in your copius rendering of scripture, you both read and write scripture without understanding.

As in your above rendering....Jesus was conversing with an expert in the laws of Judaism.

This expert in the laws of Judaism wanted to know "what he must DO! as in which of the laws or whether all the laws of Judaism must be kept in order for any Jew, including himself to inherit eternal life. Or in order to be saved as we understand it!

Jesus gave him a chamce to answer his own question. As an expert in Judaism's laws he ought to know....And know he did; because Jesus approved his answer. Jesus reinforced his approval of the "expert in Judaism's laws" answer by adding His approbation..."This DO; as in work at it!...and you will enjoy eternal life as we are known to call salvation in our time.

You may choose to confuse yourself by misinterpreting the rest of the conversation between Jesus and the Jewish expert in the laws of Judaism. But suffice it to say that if the conversation had ended with Jesus's answer, the expert in the laws of Judaism would be clear as to what laws must be kept in order to inherit eternal life, or in order for him to be saved. This Answer! as that which can only be given by the Author of salvation Himself.

But for those with less than optimum understanding.....! If Jesus thought that the "pat answer" as given by today's "Christians without understanding "...if He thought that their understanding had any merit..... Jesus would have clearly said....'the law has been fulfilled in me'.....'you need no more to keep God's laws'....'you are now under Grace and God's laws are now unnecessary'...because now that you believe on me; you can never be lost and never do you need to keep God's laws again ever'...That is unless you believe that Jesus himself had the same erroneous understanding of His own gift of salvation as you and others of deluded Chrisitanity still believe and teach.


precept

 

[pearl]

Very often a Catholic responds to the question of 'are you saved' with a
hesitation that is misunderstood by the fundamentalist inquirer. This hesitation makes
perfect sense. In a few seconds one is attempting to evaluate her/his life response
to God. It is our belief that through Christ we are promised the possibility of salvation, but we are free to accept or reject salvation throughout our life.

 

[Dadball]

As in your above rendering....Jesus was conversing with an expert in the laws of Judaism.This expert in the laws of Judaism wanted to know "what he must DO! as in which of the laws or whether all the laws of Judaism must be kept in order for any Jew, including himself to inherit eternal life. Or in order to be saved as we understand it!

Jesus gave him a chamce to answer his own question. As an expert in Judaism's laws he ought to know....And know he did; because Jesus approved his answer. Jesus reinforced his approval of the "expert in Judaism's laws" answer by adding His approbation..."This DO; as in work at it!...and you will enjoy eternal life as we are known to call salvation in our time.
precept

Through out the 4 Gospels the Chief Priests and the Experts of the Law tested Jesus' knowledge of scripture. These tests were in vain. All 4 Gospel writers have this interaction. It is important for several reasons.



1. In this time, the Priests and expert knew the way to salvation, but they did not practice what they knew as truth.

2. Jesus wanted to turn this test back on the Expert, and get him to publicly state the truth.

3. After the test, Jesus wanted the Expert and the crowd to know his authority by telling the Expert "Do this and you will live". You may know the law, but I AM the way to eternal life.

But suffice it to say that if the conversation had ended with Jesus’ answer, the expert in the laws of Judaism would be clear as to what laws must be kept in order to inherit eternal life, or in order for him to be saved.

The conversation did not end. The Expert still tried to trip Jesus up. "And who is my neighbor?” I agree the Expert should have quit while he was ahead, because Jesus goes on to tell the parable of the Good Samaritan. Again Jesus points out that the Priest, and the Righteous know the Truth, but they are so caught up in there own righteousness, that they don't fulfill God's law. It takes an outcast to the Jews to be the one that shows mercy on the afflicted. Jesus said "Go and do like wise". Why? Jesus wants us to know the way to eternal life not only in word, but in deed as well.

'the law has been fulfilled in me'.....'you need no more to keep God's laws'....'you are now under Grace and God's laws are now unnecessary'...because now that you believe on me; you can never be lost and never do you need to keep God's laws again ever'...

Can you show me in the Bible where Jesus said these? I want understand the full context of each statement.

As can be seen in your copius rendering of scripture, you both read and write scripture without understanding.

My understanding in the Gospel is best stated as a work in progress. I will gain understanding on God's time not mine. The writing is left up to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and the words are from Christ my Lord and Savoir.



My point that I must not have been clear on is that God is a God of Love." For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". By God's love I have salvation, I keep from being separated from God by loving God with all of my soul, and loving my brother as myself. I won't/can't sit back and proclaim Christ as my Savoir and not repent/worship/pray/praise/show mercy. Freely I received, freely I should give.



Shalom