Christian Only: Is Heaven One-Size-Fits-All or Multi-Tiered

[Katzpur]

Katz ~

i take scripture to interpret scripture, so in relation to Jesus' promise to reward us based on our works, i understand it to mean just that.

that Jesus will reward us based on our work for His Kingdom. one can't enter that Kingdom without faith and discipleship, and it is faith and God's grace which makes that entrance possible in this life.

yet Jesus doesn't say He will reward us in different measure based on our works. our works can not be the same form person to person. one person will be called to build a Christian school, others to preach the Gospel in Columbia, others to serve and minister to the sick at a local hospital in Jesus' name. as the parable of the talents illustrates, we are not given identical amounts or opportunities to work with. but we are given equal reward for what we do with what we've been given.

I disagree, ayani. It would be almost impossible to argue convincingly that all Christians are equally committed to Jesus Christ. It makes all the sense in the world that when Jesus continually stressed that we must obey our Father in Heaven's commandments, He would bless us to the extent that we did so. Furthermore, it makes no sense to think that everyone who went to Heaven (from Mother Teresa to the person who just made it in by the skin of his teeth) would all be blessed equally. Why would Jesus have been so adamant about our being obedient if it really didn't matter much to Him in the end?

 

[ayani]

Katz ~

one either belongs to Jesus, or one doesn't. one is either fully committed to Him, or not committed at all.

true, a disciple often falls and fails and acts selfishly. but in the end, one still loves the Lord more than themselves, and is able to ask His forgiveness, and keep going.

if we are saved and blessed and rewarded based on what we do, than salvation by faith is meaningless. our works can not reconcile us to God eternally. they are supposed to be the natural fruits of our salvation, given by faith in Christ and God's grace in response to that faith. we are saved one by faith and grace, and we work out our salvation by discipleship. actively loving God with all our heart and soul and might, and loving our neighbor as ourselves, because of Jesus, in Jesus, and for Jesus. because of the Holy Spirit at work in our lives, hearts, wills, and understanding.

in truth, Jesus clearly says that the one who came "late" and did less work received the same wages as the ones who came "early" and worked in the hot sun all day. saying "yes" to the Master's offer to be hired is what guaranteed them pay at the end of the day, not how long they worked or how many bales they made.

we are asked to bear fruit for Jesus, and He will enquirer of our fruits. but a tree with bad roots can't bear good fruit, and no seed planted and nourished by God's Spirit would be poorly rooted, or fruitless. one can get lazy about one's spiritual life, and lazy about following Jesus. but if one has the Holy Spirit, it won't be for long. remember, Jesus talked about four kinds of soil that receive the Good News, and only one kind bears a crop. the chance for repentance and re-dedication is always there, as is the chance to make use of what God has given the Christian- the seed of the Kingdom in their heart.

I disagree, ayani. It would be almost impossible to argue convincingly that all Christians are equally committed to Jesus Christ. It makes all the sense in the world that when Jesus continually stressed that we must obey our Father in Heaven's commandments, He would bless us to the extent that we did so. Furthermore, it makes no sense to think that everyone who went to Heaven (from Mother Teresa to the person who just made it in by the skin of his teeth) would all be blessed equally. Why would Jesus have been so adamant about our being obedient if it really didn't matter much to Him in the end?

 

[Katzpur]

one either belongs to Jesus, or one doesn't. one is either fully committed to Him, or not committed at all.

Well, I guess we're just going to have to disagree on this, ayani. I've seen a whole range of commitment in the people I've known over the years. Maybe your experience has been different from mine.

if we are saved and blessed and rewarded based on what we do, than salvation by faith is meaningless.

Personally I believe that faith without works is dead, and I don't believe that we are saved by faith alone, so again we differ.

our works can not reconcile us to God eternally. they are supposed to be the natural fruits of our salvation, given by faith in Christ and God's grace in response to that faith. we are saved one by faith and grace, and we work out our salvation by discipleship. actively loving God with all our heart and soul and might, and loving our neighbor as ourselves, because of Jesus, in Jesus, and for Jesus. because of the Holy Spirit at work in our lives, hearts, wills, and understanding.

I agree that our works cannot reconcile us to God. Only Christ's atonement can do that. I also agree that when one is truly committed to Jesus Christ, he will want to do good as a result of the love he feels for his Savior. The fact remains, though, that some people live a life where pretty much everything they do shows their dedication to Jesus Christ while others who claim to believe in Him and even to trust that He will forgive them of their sins because of their faith in Him are seemingly less than valiant in trying to live Christ-like lives. Will these individuals be sent to Hell? Most Christians would agree that they won't, that Jesus Christ will forgive them and welcome them into His presence. The question is, will they receive exactly the same reward as those who truly devoted their lives to serving Him? If I'm understanding you correctly, you believe they will. I believe otherwise.

in truth, Jesus clearly says that the one who came "late" and did less work received the same wages as the ones who came "early" and worked in the hot sun all day. saying "yes" to the Master's offer to be hired is what guaranteed them pay at the end of the day, not how long they worked or how many bales they made.

And as I pointed out, that does not even address the question I'm posing. It is referring to another issue entirely.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

God will be all in all. I can't really see there being "layers" because we will really see God and become like him.

This evokes one of my most favorite passages in Scripture:

Beloved, we are God's children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, we will be like him for we will see him as he is. And all who have this hope in him purify themselves just as he is pure. 1 John 3.2

I love this notion of seeing- that we are transformed into the likeness of the thing we behold, that the object of our intelligibility has an influence on us, for good or for ill. I can think how this might be true for mundane things, so much more so for God.

In faith we behold God as in a "mirror dimly lit" and so also is our transformation somewhat dim, but in heaven we will actually see God as he is, and so we will be like him.

So, as to the OP, I think the Beatific Vision implies all the saints will behold God "as he is", and is thus in that sense egalitarian.

 

[ayani]

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from Me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23)

Katz ~

the above shows that one can say things about Jesus and do things in His name, and yet not belong to them. one can speak His name and appear to have faith, yet have no place in His Kingdom.

one either belongs to Him, or one does not. words and apparently good deeds can not save us, and won't matter in the end. the will of the Father is for us to believe in Jesus' name, be saved by faith, and bear fruit as a disciple (John 6:44, John 20:31).

 

[Katzpur]

...we will really see God and become like him.

Hmmm. Interesting. That sounds almost Mormon.

So, as to the OP, I think the Beatific Vision implies all the saints will behold God "as he is", and is thus in that sense egalitarian.

Okie dokie. Personally, I think that Pope John Paul II is going to receive blessings far and above those of your average run-of-the-mill Christian. :yes:

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Okie dokie. Personally, I think that Pope John Paul II is going to receive blessings far and above those of your average run-of-the-mill Christian.

Perhaps as he is in heaven now . Catholic doctrine distinguishes between Purgatory and heaven, which means the more faithful and morally pure will spend less time in Purgatory on their way to heaven.

At least in the Catholic sense, as I understand it, the Beatific Vision is not complete until our bodies have resurrected. That might allow for an intermediate stage of "hierarchy", even in heaven, until the plan for redemption has completed at the conclusion of the age.

 

[LittleNipper]

Hmmm. Interesting. That sounds almost Mormon.

Okie dokie. Personally, I think that Pope John Paul II is going to receive blessings far and above those of your average run-of-the-mill Christian. :yes:

Why might not the Pope's blessings be mostly those he gets while here on earth?

 

[Quiddity]

I makes no sense to have semi-committment, lukewarm committment, or a little committment in a loving relationship. Who in the world acts this way now?

Just imagine your wife/husband-to-be telling "I will be semi-committed in our life together"

Why is our relationship with God any different?

The fact that lukewarm Christians exist doesn't mean we need to find a place for them. In fact, even in my "lukewarm" stages in life I would have told you that I have no desire of remaining lukewarm. That's not the goal.

Just as I wouldn't remain that way in my marriage.

If you remain lukewarm, there is always purgatory.

 

[RomCat]

There are different degrees of glory in Heaven among the elect.
But no matter what degree of glory you may possess, your cup of joy
will be full. It is just that others will have either a bigger cup or a
smaller cup than you.
This will not matter to anyone because everyone in Heaven will
experience joy to the limit of their own personal capacity to do so.
"Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it even entered the
mind of man what God has prepared for those who love him."

 

[Danizar]

Sounds reasonable.

 

[AlsoAnima]

The question of whether there are different "levels" within Heaven was mentioned recently in another thread. Do you believe there are are divisions of any kind in Heaven? Why or why not?

No. Heaven is part of the Deity, when we are with the Deity we are in heaven.

 

[Dunemeister]

Heaven is important, but it's not the end of the world. "Heaven" is not, on a Christian understanding, the "final destination." Rather, it's a way station between death and the actual final destination, the renewed (and quite physical) cosmos. That is, our eventual home will be the home we have right now, only when we get it back, it will no longer be subject to sin and decay. It will have been resurrected (metaphorically) just as we will have been (literally). But no matter which stage of this story you consider, there are no "levels." At our final destination, there will be different rewards for different people, but these rewards do not constitute living in one sort of world as opposed to another. We will all share one world.