Christian responsibility to beg for mercy

[angellous_evangellous]

These "christians" that tortured people i would not consider "christians"

The sentiment is reciprocated, I'm sure.

I know, it is a great misconception amongst christians.

:biglaugh:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Never knew theology could be this much fun.:jam:

 

[Michel07]

It was Bertrand Russell, the famous atheist, that brought sanity to American Protestantism by his criticism of how Christians treat women and homosexuals. The liberation of women, homosexuals, and even slaves did not come from Christianity but from atheist ethics which were liberated from the tyranny of the Bible and its interpreters.

I'd have to point to America as an excellent example of an atheist society, at least idealistically in its government. The seperation of church and state - thank God - spares us from another Dark Age instituted by evangelical Christians with a powerlust to re-establish a theocricy in the name of an insane god.

To properly judge the past it needs to be more well researched beyond its own infamy
and weighed against the culture of the time. Much is made of the negative and little regard is given the positive because so little attention is given the positive. The past is too often judged by those who were not there and against standards that are todays. Sometimes it is like the evening news as though that were an accurate reflection of the whole world. You credit Russell for too much and demonize Christians of the past too much. History is not the evening news.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

To properly judge the past it needs to be more well researched beyond its own infamy and weighed against the culture of the time. Much is made of the negative and little regard is given the positive because so little attention is given the positive. The past is too often judged by those who were not there and against standards that are todays. Sometimes it is like the evening news as though that were an accurate reflection of the whole world. You credit Russell for too much and demonize Christians of the past too much. History is not the evening news.

Neither one of them are in need of reinterpretation. The Catholic church is still wallowing in its sin, whereas Russell still speaks to it with great authority.

 

[Michel07]

Neither one of them are in need of reinterpretation. The Catholic church is still wallowing in its sin, whereas Russell still speaks to it with great authority.

Go get a real education.

 

[Troublemane]

We humans (especially Americans) see suffering as the absence of God. Perhpas we should be looking for God within the reality of human suffering, not outside the realm of human suffering. I believe that God is most available to us in our suffering, and God, having suffered on the cross, stands with us in solidarity in our suffering.

The whole message of Christianity is/was about suffering, I thought. Blessed are those who suffer, and so forth (Luke 6:27 and such). The message of Jesus seems to be very zen-like in some respects: Woe to those who are laughing now, for later you will weep. Yeah, this is what happens, today is great but tomorrow will suck. And the reverse also---if today is bad, eventually fortune will reverse.

What happens to everybody who is successful is there will come a day when they ain't ! This happened with Israel (was gods chosen nation, then brought low several times in history), Rome (was once great, now just a fading memory),Great Britain (not long ago ruled the world...) and this will happen with the USA as well---its inevitable: americans think we are hot stuff now, but eventually this country will fall out of ascendency and be brought low, too. Rather than seeing this as the absence of God, this is just the way things go. One day your up then your down, then your up again. its all transitory, so the message of Jesus is really "hey, just dont get all wrapped up in it, and you'll be fine"

 

[angellous_evangellous]

*bump due to recent interest*

 

[iclaf]

It would be a better idea if you changed your heart, rather than having the audacity to expect God having a change of heart. He is not the lilly livered god that this world thinks he is.

God's righteousness cannot allow any sinner to enter heaven except through the blood of Christ, and nothing can change that....

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Go get a real education.

Good thing I'll know where to put it when I do...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It would be a better idea if you changed your heart, rather than having the audacity to expect God having a change of heart. He is not the lilly livered god that this world thinks he is.

God's righteousness cannot allow any sinner to enter heaven except through the blood of Christ, and nothing can change that....

Good thing it's simple because I've been accused of being obtuse.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

*Recent interest*

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I'm just wondering, Angellous, seeing as you believe that adherents of a non-Christian faith may be saved...whether or not their salvation is still coming from Christ and not their own particular faith system.

This would be something like my own personal belief. I believe we need to proclaim the Gospel because salvation comes from Christ alone. We need to do what we can to bring people into relation to the source of salvation, the one by whom the world came into being. While all other faiths are deficient, and while the title "true religion" is proper only to Christianity, we personally can never probe the "depths" of another and therefore, it is not possible to know whether Christ is working and how he might be doing so in another. This, despite the obstacles of their religion or, in other instances, by virtue of what in that religion "reflects that ray of truth which enlightens all human beings". I think we can all think of individuals who, though not Christians, so evidently manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit that it is nearly impossible to consider that Christ and the Holy Spirit were not acting in them (ie. Gandhi)....otherwise would we not have to admit that these virtues, such as agape mercy, charity, true love of God and neighbour, are produced in people by something other than the Spirit? Who would this be?

St. Augustine said "many there are that the Church has which God does not have, and there are many which God has but the Church does not".

I think to make any absolute statements about the salvation of the non-Christian is risky business.

 

[Mehr Licht]

In the Gospels Christ is portrayed as focusing more on peoples actions toward the Christ in their midst, their fellow man, rather than their conscious beliefs about God in relation to the judgement. He says " I was hungry and you feed me.. I was in prison and you visited me...etc.." Beliefs are important but they aren't the be all end all of a person. Heck even Satan believes.

I tend to think that people create hell or heaven in themselves and the inner becomes manifested outwardly after death. What is hidden becomes manifest. The seed of heaven or hell blossoms and all that jazz. Like the soul turned inside out so to speak*. You bring hell with you and you will manifest hell in the afterlife. As much as I hate the idea of hell I can't not believe in it because I see evidence of it in this world. The holocaust or the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans here in the US are examples of hell incarnate. In this world it's almost easier to believe in hell than it is heaven at times.

* I was reading a great book with that title which kind of brought that phrase to mind here -
"The World Turned Inside Out, Henry Corbin and Islamic Mysticism" by Tom Cheetham. Awesome book btw

 

[Mehr Licht]

I guess I didn't really answer the question. Yes, I think Christians have a responsibility to pray for the salvation and well being of every person. Every sentient being even.

I would like to live up to this sentiment expressed by Isaac the Syrian in that regard:

“What is a merciful heart? It is a heart on fire for the whole of creation, for humanity, for the birds, for the animals, for demons, and for all that exists. By the recollection of them the eyes of a merciful person pour forth tears in abundance. By the strong and vehement mercy that grips such a person’s heart, and by such great compassion, the heart is humbled and one cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in any in creation. For this reason, such a person offers up tearful prayer continually even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth, and for those who harm her or him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner such a person prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns without measure in a heart that is in the likeness of God.”​