Christianity... An issue,

[Bishka]

Greco-Roman mindset it's a downfall, well so is the Eastern, so we just can't win can we. *If anybody wants me to expound PM me I'm to tired to try to explain right now*

 

[darkwaldo]

If god is so benevolent and understanding, then I have a hard time believing anyone will be sent to hell. This god supposedly created the human race and given everyone a free will. If a god would send us to hell for using what is freely given to us wouldn't that make him evil? If he is really so understanding then, call it a hunch but, he really wouldn't care so much about how we as a species worship. Like the bumper sticker says: "gods too big to fit into one religion".
People like myself shouldn't have a problem getting into heaven either. After all, there is a mountain of evidence and knowledge, which the god would have created, that imply a universe without god. Its no fault of ours we don't believe in a god. We're just making conclusions based off of the current amount of knowledge we have of the universe.

I feel your view of god makes him look like a cruel tyrant instead of a benevolent ruler.

 

[frg001]

He is right, you will be sent to hell for your sins.
You can be forgiven because Jesus paid for your sins on the Cross but instead because you are self-righteous and believe you haved lived a "fairly decent life" you shun Gods forgivness - you dont believe you need it.

I don't need it because the idea of a god is fairly fantastical to me. But if he did exist, and decided to send me to hell for this reason, then he's an evil idiot.

God will not judge us by our standard of decency - he is perfect, have you ever lied? Stolen? Lusted? I know ive done all those things and its not until we realise that we would stand guilty befor a Holy Perfect God that we realise we need his forgiveness.

Of course...I am 'human' just are you. We are fallible. I haven't actually stolen, nor do I intend to. I have lusted, but IMO this is NOT wrong. It's a natural chemical reaction to do with our number one instinct...procreation.

She will go to heaven if she truly did accept Jesus as her Saviour.
What difference does comparing one guily person to another do? While one may have done worse things it dosnt mean the other isnt still guilty of their offences.
For example, if the police caught and charged me with stealing 2 cars and my only defence was that there are plennty of other people in the world who are much much worse then me should the judge just let me go?

Of course not. That's dumb.

There will always be people better and worse then you, somtimes much better sometimes much worse but this in no way lessens your own sin in Gods eyes. Perhaps your rejection of the sacrifice his Son made is much more serious then you think and perhaps you reject it because you dont think God regards your sin as serious.

No. I reject it as preposterous.

 

[Adstar]

He is right, you will be sent to hell for your sins.
You can be forgiven because Jesus paid for your sins on the Cross but instead because you are self-righteous and believe you haved lived a "fairly decent life" you shun Gods forgivness - you dont believe you need it.
God will not judge us by our standard of decency - he is perfect, have you ever lied? Stolen? Lusted? I know ive done all those things and its not until we realise that we would stand guilty befor a Holy Perfect God that we realise we need his forgiveness.



She will go to heaven if she truly did accept Jesus as her Saviour.
What difference does comparing one guily person to another do? While one may have done worse things it dosnt mean the other isnt still guilty of their offences.
For example, if the police caught and charged me with stealing 2 cars and my only defence was that there are plennty of other people in the world who are much much worse then me should the judge just let me go?
There will always be people better and worse then you, somtimes much better sometimes much worse but this in no way lessens your own sin in Gods eyes. Perhaps your rejection of the sacrifice his Son made is much more serious then you think and perhaps you reject it because you dont think God regards your sin as serious.

Well said : :highfive:

God is perfect. His Justice is not overruled by His love. People are not condemned for their sins but for their rejection of Gods Forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus. All men sin so all men fall short of perfection. Does not matter if you steal a car or kill a million people, both fall short of perfection and both need to be forgiven.

Remember its not your standards that count it's Gods standards.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Opethian]

Well said : :highfive:

God is perfect. His Justice is not overruled by His love. People are not condemned for their sins but for their rejection of Gods Forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus. All men sin so all men fall short of perfection. Does not matter if you steal a car or kill a million people, both fall short of perfection and both need to be forgiven.

Remember its not your standards that count it's Gods standards.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Well it's too bad I don't believe in any goddies or heavens or little satans and FIIIIREEE AAAAND BRIIIIMSTTOOOOONEEEEE !!! :faint:

I think I'm going to do my daily blasphemizing of god. Just to compensate for all the fear-filled people kissing his imaginary behind

 

[sojourner]

Well said : :highfive:

God is perfect. His Justice is not overruled by His love. People are not condemned for their sins but for their rejection of Gods Forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus. All men sin so all men fall short of perfection. Does not matter if you steal a car or kill a million people, both fall short of perfection and both need to be forgiven.

Remember its not your standards that count it's Gods standards.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Its no fault of ours we don't believe in a god. We're just making conclusions based off of the current amount of knowledge we have of the universe.

1) God's justice? How do you read the stories of 1) the workers in the vineyard, who all got paid the same amount, even though some did more work? Is that justice, or love prevailing? 2) the king who throws a party, and none of the invitees choose to attend -- the king goes into the streets and drags in those who were not invited...justice, or love? 3) the pericope where the disciples rebuke a man for casting out demons in Jesus' Name, because he was "not one of them?" What does Jesus say about that? How do you reconcile these stories to God's justice prevailing over God's love? If God is love, how can love not be manifest in everything God does? God's going to send us to hell in a loving way? I don't think so. Love is inclusive, not exclusive.

2) Actually, it is your fault. One is responsible for one's own actions and one's own belief. Belief is a decision that only an individual can make.

 

[may]

According to my belief as a JW, you will both go to the same place when you die, and that is the grave, but dont think that means there is no hope for both of you . because the bible teaches that there will be a ressurection at a future time , for the righteous and the unrighteous ,and you will have the chance of everlasting life, and you will be judged on how you live your life from after your ressurection not what you did before you died .Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment John 5;28-29 so if you are in Jehovahs memory you will be ressurected .....the bible does not teach a litral hellfire , this is a false teaching , passed down through false religious teachers it is not what Jesus meant at all.

 

[No*s]

...And this may apply to other religions too.
Something that has nagged me for a long while...

I once was chatting to an old work colleague, a very nice person, who unfortunately(in my eyes) had become a born again christian.
I asked him the question...
Q) I have lived a fairly decent life. I try not to hurt people, I am tolerant of other peoples beliefs and lifestyles, and I live by the rule "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself", BUT I will never accept Jesus Christ, or god into my heart. Where do YOU think I will go when I die...?
He answered without even the slightest grin ... A lake of fire...hell.
Q) Moira Hindley... Notorious child killer. Repented her sins in jail and accepted jesus into her heart. Where will she go?
His sincere answer was... Heaven.

Please someone make sense of this.

What happens if Hell is how we experience God? Love is one of those things that isn't always a positive experience. Most of us have been injured in some fashion, because we loved someone (not just romantic love), and they disappointed or hurt us somehow, intentionally or not. Here love is painful.

There is another way, though, where love is painful. Should love be given to someone who doesn't want it, then that love is painful as well. If a woman has a suitor, one who is not a stalker, not cruel, or any of those other things, and she can't stand him, then all that affection he pours out causes her sorrow and pain. It doesn't change the fact that he loves her. This can occur in friendships, family, any other area where there is love.

Now, God's love is universal, and He calls all of us to Him. Suppose someone doesn't love God when that happens. It's not going to be a pleasant experience for them to say the least . Conversely, for those who love Him, it will be a pleasant, warm experience. As a fire can burn or warm you, so is our experience of God.

This also means that Hell is not always eternal for all people (though it will be for some). Some people may well repent and be healed after they pass away and begin to experience this.

Looking at it from that perspective:

Q1). When it isn't about being good or bad, simple guilt or innocence, but love for, acceptance of, and becoming like Christ, then in actively rejecting Him, one makes it far more difficult to experience or accept His love in the hereafter, perhaps impossible.

We can't know what will happen to you, but whatever happens will happen because of your own heart. We simply don't know your heart.

Q2). The same thing applies to the murderer mentioned. We don't know her heart, and genuine repentance goes a long way.

 

[Super Universe]

A man can claim that he is good and if he does good things people will all agree even though inside he is full of anger, jealousy, hatred, and fear.

A thief may choose not to steal because he is tired of being chased by the police but is he not still a thief?

The key is the truly moral decision to no longer commit sin, to no longer do harm toward others whether they will know or not.

 

[sojourner]

A man can claim that he is good and if he does good things people will all agree even though inside he is full of anger, jealousy, hatred, and fear.

A thief may choose not to steal because he is tired of being chased by the police but is he not still a thief?

The key is the truly moral decision to no longer commit sin, to no longer do harm toward others whether they will know or not.

Let me take that a step further. Grace means that, even though he has been a thief, God has made him a new creature. He no longer even has been a thief. The sin is WIPED OUT -- never existed. Therefore...the man no longer has to live his life in a manner dictated by the memory of past sin. He no longer is identified by others by his sin, but by his new self.

 

[Super Universe]

What human is born already mature and already wise? Jesus? Okay but what about the rest of us?

For the rest of us it takes a life of learning from our mistakes and not learning because we are tired of arguing with our parents or running from the authorities but actually changing our way of thinking.

You must choose to be moral. Truth must be at your core. Do no harm. Recognize your own selfishness and think about the good of all things.

 

[dawny0826]

...And this may apply to other religions too.
Something that has nagged me for a long while...

I once was chatting to an old work colleague, a very nice person, who unfortunately(in my eyes) had become a born again christian.
I asked him the question...
Q) I have lived a fairly decent life. I try not to hurt people, I am tolerant of other peoples beliefs and lifestyles, and I live by the rule "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself", BUT I will never accept Jesus Christ, or god into my heart. Where do YOU think I will go when I die...?
He answered without even the slightest grin ... A lake of fire...hell.
Q) Moira Hindley... Notorious child killer. Repented her sins in jail and accepted jesus into her heart. Where will she go?
His sincere answer was... Heaven.

Please someone make sense of this.

Many, like myself believe that salvation is obtained through acceptance of Christ.

Biblically speaking, without the Son...we cannot know the Father.

Salvation is extended to everyone...even the notorious child killer...if they repent and ACCEPT Christ.

Works are null and void, really...without the faith in Christ behind them.

 

[onmybelief]

Many, like myself believe that salvation is obtained through acceptance of Christ.

Biblically speaking, without the Son...we cannot know the Father.

Salvation is extended to everyone...even the notorious child killer...if they repent and ACCEPT Christ.

Works are null and void, really...without the faith in Christ behind them.

This is exactly what I believe. Works are meaningless if there is no faith to enforce those works.

 

[Endless]

Sin is like a disease - the Bible says the wages of sin is death. If you liken Sin to a viral infection - everyone has it, everyone will die and go to hell according to the Bible unless the virus is dealt with. However i have an antiviral drug - it cost me my life making it, it's yours if you want it you've only got to ask for it.

A really simple analogy - it's not meant to be perfect, just to get an idea across. If someone lives all their life in Sin - yet receives the antidote, how can they not be saved? If someone lives as good a life as they can yet does not take the antidote how can they be saved?
There's only one way - there's only one antidote. Jesus said,

'I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me.'

So how can you possibly be saved if you do not come through Jesus to be saved, since he is the only antidote?

That's the problem with the general conception of Christianity - 'they are do gooders' 'They are good people' then the link is made 'Do good and you'll get to heaven'. I am not a good person, i can try but like the Bible says:

But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

Doing good or lack of it will never get you into heaven -ever.

It is by faith - not works, lest any man should boast.

There's an infection that all have, all are going to hell as a result, there's only one antidote and that's Jesus. You don't take the antidote and you will go to hell - God doesn't want you to go there, but you'll send yourself there if you don't take the antidote.
It really is as simple as that.

 

[Adstar]

Well it's too bad I don't believe in any goddies or heavens or little satans and FIIIIREEE AAAAND BRIIIIMSTTOOOOONEEEEE !!! :faint:

I think I'm going to do my daily blasphemizing of god. Just to compensate for all the fear-filled people kissing his imaginary behind

Thats you free will decision. But i think it is a waste to spend ones life motivated by being an anti this or an anti that. It's better to be for something then to be against something.

For some people though the cup is always half empty


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

1) God's justice? How do you read the stories of 1) the workers in the vineyard, who all got paid the same amount, even though some did more work? Is that justice, or love prevailing? 2) the king who throws a party, and none of the invitees choose to attend -- the king goes into the streets and drags in those who were not invited...justice, or love? 3) the pericope where the disciples rebuke a man for casting out demons in Jesus' Name, because he was "not one of them?" What does Jesus say about that? How do you reconcile these stories to God's justice prevailing over God's love? If God is love, how can love not be manifest in everything God does? God's going to send us to hell in a loving way? I don't think so. Love is inclusive, not exclusive.

2) Actually, it is your fault. One is responsible for one's own actions and one's own belief. Belief is a decision that only an individual can make.

Love is only of benefit if the one offered it accepts it. We are all offered mercy through the Messiah Jesus and Mercy on the repentant is Justice.


The Workers symbolised belief. The payment salvation. Some people believe when they are young and live long lives in faith while others accept Jesus on their death beds. Both have the same reward. One should not grumble that others who come late receive the same blessing. Jesus said in the parable.

Matthew 20
8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’


And they did not "drag" in the people who where not invited, He sent out his servants to Invite those who where not invited.

Matthew 22
8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

The celebration represented salvation the invited where the Jews who rejected Jesus the servants sent out represents those who give the good news of the gospel to the world and those who accept the invitation are the non-Jewish gentiles who embrace Jesus as Messiah. Therefore Justice is maintained because they accepted Jesus for the rightful atonement of their sins.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[sojourner]

Love is only of benefit if the one offered it accepts it. We are all offered mercy through the Messiah Jesus and Mercy on the repentant is Justice.


The Workers symbolised belief. The payment salvation. Some people believe when they are young and live long lives in faith while others accept Jesus on their death beds. Both have the same reward. One should not grumble that others who come late receive the same blessing. Jesus said in the parable.

Matthew 20
8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’


And they did not "drag" in the people who where not invited, He sent out his servants to Invite those who where not invited.

Matthew 22
8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

The celebration represented salvation the invited where the Jews who rejected Jesus the servants sent out represents those who give the good news of the gospel to the world and those who accept the invitation are the non-Jewish gentiles who embrace Jesus as Messiah. Therefore Justice is maintained because they accepted Jesus for the rightful atonement of their sins.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I disagree. Salvation isn't a "payment" for something we do. It isn't a "reward" for something we do. This story is about God's freedom to distribute God's love and grace as God sees fit.

[edit] Your first statement: So...what you're asserting is that salvation isn't dependent upon God's decision to save, but is dependent upon our decision to accept it? It's awfully comfortable for us to be in control of our destiny, isn't it? We choose whether or not we are loved, or whether we are rejected. In that scenario, we take the credit for our choice to respond to God's grace. In that scenario, we choose God, rather than God choosing us. But Jesus was very clear, wasn't he, about who does the choosing: "You did not choose me, but I chose you." (Jn 15:16)

 

[Adstar]

I disagree. Salvation isn't a "payment" for something we do. It isn't a "reward" for something we do. This story is about God's freedom to distribute God's love and grace as God sees fit.

[edit] Your first statement: So...what you're asserting is that salvation isn't dependent upon God's decision to save, but is dependent upon our decision to accept it? It's awfully comfortable for us to be in control of our destiny, isn't it? We choose whether or not we are loved, or whether we are rejected. In that scenario, we take the credit for our choice to respond to God's grace. In that scenario, we choose God, rather than God choosing us. But Jesus was very clear, wasn't he, about who does the choosing: "You did not choose me, but I chose you." (Jn 15:16)

Hi sojourner

I have had the opportunity to read some of your posts on other threads. So now i suspect where you are coming from. You are a believer in universalism, right?


The old covenant was an agreement that included responsibilities on both sides. All covenants require both to give something to the agreement. And in the New covenant provided through the Messiah is no different. We are required to believe. Belief is such a simple thing you could not even really call it a "Works" One either embraces the Message of Jesus or they don't.

Your quoted John 15: 16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you." but that was Jesus talking to His disciples. Jesus did choose them, none of them chose Jesus.

God knows how people will react to His call but that does not make his call exclusive to only those whom will accept Him. The scriptures also say:

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The reason few are chosen is because few will listen to the call. Those who listen to the call and embrace the Messiah Jesus are chosen to conform to the image of His Son.

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: are you also a calvanist?

 

[steve at JRM]

frg001. I believe Jesus already took care of our sins. God has set rules so that we may better our lives. Earth is a collective whole. If we all treat each other well, and enjoy what we have, we are living in the will of God. Gods plan is for the earth as a whole, not for an individual or a group to overcome others. We are meant to all get along. Heaven is here on earth. We just need to make it the way we want it. It depends on which rules we want to play by.

 

[sojourner]

Hi sojourner

I have had the opportunity to read some of your posts on other threads. So now i suspect where you are coming from. You are a believer in universalism, right?


The old covenant was an agreement that included responsibilities on both sides. All covenants require both to give something to the agreement. And in the New covenant provided through the Messiah is no different. We are required to believe. Belief is such a simple thing you could not even really call it a "Works" One either embraces the Message of Jesus or they don't.

Your quoted John 15: 16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you." but that was Jesus talking to His disciples. Jesus did choose them, none of them chose Jesus.

God knows how people will react to His call but that does not make his call exclusive to only those whom will accept Him. The scriptures also say:

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The reason few are chosen is because few will listen to the call. Those who listen to the call and embrace the Messiah Jesus are chosen to conform to the image of His Son.

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: are you also a calvanist?

Calvinist! Omigod! Absolutely not!

Where you and I get askew of each other (and please understand, I'm not here to say "you're wrong." I'm mainly here to discuss my point of view, which is fairly unique, especially where I live, to test it, so to speak, against others' views. I'm still formulating a theology out of this, so I might take off on a misleading tack from time to time) anyway, where we get askew of each other is that, if I'm reading you right, you contend that God's love takes a back seat to human free will. I say that God always gets what God wants, in the end, because God is the ultimate reality. OUr free will is fantasy compared to the reality that is God.