Christianity... An issue,

[Booko]

So is it different for the Gentiles? Also in theOT wan't it possible for Gentiles to be saved, ie. Caleb?

Here's a place to start:

http://www.geocities.com/rachav/

Oh gee, good golly, my bad. This is like trying to get an answer from my 11 year old. five questions later. :bonk: Okaaaaaay then. What was this fledgling "RELIGION" you were refering to?

I don't know why you would be having such a tough time following the thread. He meant yours.

 

[Ody]

So is it different for the Gentiles? Also in theOT wan't it possible for Gentiles to be saved, ie. Caleb?

It was possible but belief is not a binding demand upon gentiles.

 

[Ody]

What was this fledgling "RELIGION" you were refering to?

Lets think Dr.Science..... i don't know... christianity?????

 

[ΩRôghênΩ]

its not belief so much as repentance. this woman repented therefore repayed what she had taken back to god, giving her her chance for heaven (if she made it or not i dont know)

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It was possible but belief is not a binding demand upon gentiles.

So, they were saved by works?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Lets think Dr.Science..... i don't know... christianity?????

No ship Sherlock, yet I was waiting for "Fluffy" to stop dancing around his inane statement.:dan: The claim was that the "fledgling religion" created salvation by faith in order to gain converts. This just doesn't add up. Salvation by faith was available to everyone dating back to the Old Testament which predates the statement that was made. Could it be that when faced with the facts it is better to dance around them than to admit one's prejudices?

 

[Ody]

So, they were saved by works?

Yes, so says what was recieved at Har Sinai.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Yes, so says what was recieved at Har Sinai.

Interesting. Let's take some characters like say, Adam, Enoch and Noah. Were they saved by works also?

Also could you briefly explain how what was said at Har Sinai says salvation comes by works?

 

[michel]

Regrettable, because Christianity works to unite all people, yet we so often use it to divide! How much happier we would be if we could all live together. I know that comes off sounding Pollyannaish, but when are we ever going to get it through our thick skulls that it's not up to us to decide? God will judge, and God will judge in love and not based upon "what we believe." God desires that we all be united with God, because God loves us unconditionally.



If it is true that God is love (and I believe it is), then God desires relationship with us. God has saved us, and, I believe, that when we come to stand before the ultimate truth of God's unbounded love, we must wrestle with our own hearts in light of that love-judgment. And I believe that God will have patience, continuing to seek us until we are found, death notwithstanding. Someday, all of us will accept the truth that we all belong together.

Nice post. I too was saddened at Maggie's post; I suppose people mean no harm (they genuinely believe what they are preaching), but the idea of a God who would kick 75% of the population of Earth into touch because they don't subscribe to all the requirements is something that I think does Christianity the greatest harm.

Sure God will judge our hearts, and (I believe) we will be sent back to school if our hearts aren't quite wise enough, but in the end, I look forward to meeting everyone (Christians(of all varieties and brands), Atheists, Buddhists...well, everyone).

 

[bill]

...And this may apply to other religions too.
Something that has nagged me for a long while...

I once was chatting to an old work colleague, a very nice person, who unfortunately(in my eyes) had become a born again christian.
I asked him the question...
Q) I have lived a fairly decent life. I try not to hurt people, I am tolerant of other peoples beliefs and lifestyles, and I live by the rule "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself", BUT I will never accept Jesus Christ, or god into my heart. Where do YOU think I will go when I die...?
He answered without even the slightest grin ... A lake of fire...hell.
Q) Moira Hindley... Notorious child killer. Repented her sins in jail and accepted jesus into her heart. Where will she go?
His sincere answer was... Heaven.

Please someone make sense of this.

This type of logic was applied by a scripture teacher I had in high school. She was elderly, and when asked what happens to indigenous people who never heard of Jesus she said they go to hell. The similarity with your post is that a strict Christian belief that without taking Jesus into your heart you are doomed does exist, and applies both for those ignorant of God or for those that haven't repented. For these believers, I take it that it is sufficient for Moira to repent (on her death bed perhaps) and goto heaven.

You made an interesting comparison between Moira and someone acting ethically in life. The ethical person probably acts very similarly to a Christian person deriving their sense of ethics from belief in Jesus. Over the long term I expect that both might avoid some of the more dramatic pitfalls in life like killing someone as Moira did, and so avoid the consequences. Anyway, it seems morally arbitrary to hold to a rule basing entry to heaven on "right" belief.

What about persons who are Born-again, like Moira? Lets assume it just happened a minute ago and they haven't had time to act out of their faith in an ethical manner. However, they are converted fully. Is it possible to apprehend fully the meaning of being Christian immediately upon conversion without having had time to act out a Christian life? I ask this question because I knew another scripture teacher in high school who spoke of what a bad dude he habitually was and the strife he had been involved in before becoming born-again. He seemed committed but unfortunately killed someone a couple of years later and is doing time. Afterwards I wondered how he had managed to go off the rails again. Had he found it impossible to live out his faith given his prior history or was he setting the bar too high for himself? His story seems to me similar to relapse in addiction.

Is it wise to adopt a new belief system when confronted by dramatic consequences of dramatic negative action. There seems to be a fundamental difference in the type of belief between born-again Christians and long-term believers. Like the ethical person your post, long-term believers tend to live more measured lives and avoid extreme highs and lows (on average). Sudden conversion seems to stimulate good actions, but maybe there are pitfalls?

I am interested in the phenomenology of long -term and born again belief. Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

[Mykola]

...And this may apply to other religions too.
Something that has nagged me for a long while...

Just a small remark. I belong to the Church of Christ and will be speaking on behalf of Christians. I'd rather not to generalize about any other religions.

Q) I have lived a fairly decent life. I try not to hurt people, I am tolerant of other peoples beliefs and lifestyles, and I live by the rule "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself", BUT I will never accept Jesus Christ, or god into my heart. Where do YOU think I will go when I die...?
He answered without even the slightest grin ... A lake of fire...hell.

Neither this nice person nor me can decide where you will go.
But I can give you a piece of information so that you could draw a conclusion yourself.
Jhn 8:24: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins."

So, if you don't believe, you die in your sins. Is it clear?
If you die in your sins, you're still separated from God, and now it's forever. It is hell.

Q) Moira Hindley... Notorious child killer. Repented her sins in jail and accepted jesus into her heart. Where will she go?
His sincere answer was... Heaven.

Again with the same disclaimer: I am not the one to decide, but you friend is generally right.

As soons as you have repented, confessed Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and been baptized - you are free from sins.
God forgives you without ever-ever remembering your sins (unless you do the same mistakes again).
[/quote]

Please someone make sense of this.

Now I'm ready to answer your questions

 

[retrorich]

God is perfect. His Justice is not overruled by His love. People are not condemned for their sins but for their rejection of Gods Forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus. All men sin so all men fall short of perfection. Does not matter if you steal a car or kill a million people, both fall short of perfection and both need to be forgiven.

Remember its not your standards that count it's Gods standards.

Allegedly, God, being omniscient, created humans knowing in advance that many humans would end up in Hell. Justice? Hardly! More like evil, sadistic cruelty. In my opinion, God, if he exists (I do not believe he does}, is far from perfect and is the one with the greatest need to be forgiven.

 

[Mykola]

Allegedly, God, being omniscient, created humans knowing in advance that many humans would end up in Hell.

Retrorich, would you please spend some time reading this:
http://www.Christian-thinktank.com/evilgod.html

-

But I still wonder how people who don't believe in God can decide on what He is, what He has to do, what He should have done, and what He is to blamed for...

You are professed atheist? Are you really?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But I still wonder how people who don't believe in God can decide on what He is, what He has to do, what He should have done, and what He is to blamed for...

I believe that retrorich used the term 'allegedly'.

 

[Mykola]

I believe that retrorich used the term 'allegedly'.

I believe that I've used the term 'people who don't believe in God'.

Retrorich = person who don't believe in God.
People who don't believe in God != retrorich only.

Retrorich has just triggered my remark...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe that I've used the term 'people who don't believe in God'.

Retrorich = person who don't believe in God.
People who don't believe in God != retrorich only.

Retrorich has just triggered my remark...

<yawn> disingenuous bullpuckie - the remark was directed at retrorich </yawn>

 

[Mykola]

<yawn> disingenuous bullpuckie -

Wow!
New word (for me)...
Disingenious... Good, I'll use it sometimes.
Thanks.

the remark was directed at retrorich </yawn>

I wouldn't yawn so much - not if I were you... Because yawning cannot be substituted for thinking logically.

See: we are on the forum that is accessible for everyone. Everyone can read what I write here - in reply to some person or just with no address.

Now, what I write in personal messages to a person is what directed to this person only.

Have another guess...

 

[retrorich]

Retrorich, would you please spend some time reading this:
http://www.Christian-thinktank.com/evilgod.html

-

But I still wonder how people who don't believe in God can decide on what He is, what He has to do, what He should have done, and what He is to blamed for...

You are professed atheist? Are you really?

Yes, I am really an atheist. When I discuss God, I do so hypothetically. Obviously, as an atheist, I do not believe that God exists, so I base most of my comments on what theists say about God.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Go back and re-read the post. I said fledgling religon.

Oh gee, good golly, my bad. This is like trying to get an answer from my 11 year old. five questions later. :bonk: Okaaaaaay then. What was this fledgling "RELIGION" you were refering to?

What's wrong "Fluffy" when you get called on the carpet and asked to explain your erroneous allegations you run and hide under the carpet?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Yes, so says what was recieved at Har Sinai.

Interesting. Let's take some characters like say, Adam, Enoch and Noah. Were they saved by works also?

Also could you briefly explain how what was said at Har Sinai says salvation comes by works?

Alan, if your interested I still like to pursue this line of thought some more.