Christianity and Paganism -- Compatible?

[Dunemeister]

Osiris, Thoth, Krishna, Attis, Adonis, Dionysius, Mithra, Odin, Phoenix, etc.

Some have a pretty uncanny resemblance to the Jesus story, others not so much, but the point is that resurrection myths did indeed have pagan precursors contrary to what people were claiming otherwise.

Let's be honest. No pagan worth his salt believed that a real, living person could die and then return to an immortal life. Yes, there are myths about people escaping the underworld and all that, but nobody -- NOBODY -- considered that a real possibility for any human being. Thus the "uncanny resemblance" is really quite superficial.

 

[Circle_One]

Care to share with us which ones those are?

I can. You really want a list of God-Men just like Jesus, who performed his same miracles, long before his time? Here goes.

Dionysus was born during the Yule season, to a virgin, human mother and a Godly father. He turned water into wine. He walked on water. He was crucified and resurrected 3 days later.

Osiris was murdered and ressurected.

Isis could raise the dead, turn water into wine, and was the virgin-mother to of Horus. Horus' human father's name was Seb, translated roughly, means Joseph. Horus was born in a manger, his birth marked by stars in the East.

Horus was a child teacher at the Temple at age 12. He was baptized at age 30. He had 12 disciples. He delivered a Sermon on the Mount. He was crucified between two theives, buried in a tomb, and ressurected three days later....

I can continue, if you wish.

 

[Circle_One]

Let's be honest. No pagan worth his salt believed that a real, living person could die and then return to an immortal life. Yes, there are myths about people escaping the underworld and all that, but nobody -- NOBODY -- considered that a real possibility for any human being. Thus the "uncanny resemblance" is really quite superficial.

Please explain this statement. Who are you to say what anyone does, doesn't, did or didn't believe?

 

[Circle_One]

Let's be honest. No pagan worth his salt believed that a real, living person could die and then return to an immortal life. Yes, there are myths about people escaping the underworld and all that, but nobody -- NOBODY -- considered that a real possibility for any human being. Thus the "uncanny resemblance" is really quite superficial.

Let me ask you a question, if no "Pagan worth his salt" believed this and all I and father Heather have said is purely myth and not actually believe, how do you explain the carvings made 3500 years ago on the Temple at Luxor, depicting Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended bh three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.”?

 

[Dunemeister]

Someone here wanted something that showed Christianty took something from the Pagan belief. I won't go into the easy things but here's an intresing one.

Many Celtic Gods were worshipped in triple form or triune form, the Hindus had three main Gods that they worshipped. Brahma, the creator, Vishnu, the Preserver & Shiva the Destroyer. The same can be said for the Greeks Zeus, Poseidon, & Hades.


Christianity later adopted this worship of triune God ship. Father Son Holy Ghost. Not from Judaic culture to which it is alien but from the Greek interpretation aided by the concepts of early Christians.

I think this has the best shot at being considered as Christian borrowing from paganism. The problem with it is that it seems historically wrong. When the church debated with itself and its opponents about the nature of the god they were talking about, nobody once referred to pagan deities. Pagan opponents of Christianity didn't say "Hey, what's all the fuss? You're just talking about Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades -- yawn!" Nor did the Christians make eager comparisons with the pagan gods they knew about.

Instead, we see an intense concern for faithfulness to the Mosaic revelation. Odd, if the view is entirely alien to Judaism. (Actually, the Christians hadn't thought up the idea. As early as the book of Daniel, there was speculation about the Messiah "sharing God's throne." That's code for divinity. And these Jews were not dismissed as non-Jews by their contemporaries.)

This is yet again another example of a surface similarity touted as deep borrowing. The eventual shape of trinitarianism bears no resemblance to pagan conceptions of the gods. For the pagans, everything was god so that the distinctions are illusory; or, the gods are all distinct from each other so that the unity is illusory. Only Christianity attempted to say that there are personal distinctions within the one and only God who is himself separate from all creation.

So again, failure to appreciate either early Christian theological developments or pagan conceptions lies behind the claim that early Christianity owes its development to significant borrowings from paganism.

There is one way in which I think early Christianity borrowed significantly from paganism, and that's in the matter of worship of saints. Christianity quite correctly criticized the pagan practice of ancestor worship. But I fail to see how praying to the saints is significantly different from ancestor worship.

 

[Dunemeister]

Let me ask you a question, if no "Pagan worth his salt" believed this and all I and father Heather have said is purely myth and not actually believe, how do you explain the carvings made 3500 years ago on the Temple at Luxor, depicting Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended bh three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.”?

Firstly, notice that I was commenting directly about the concept of resurrection. No pagan worth his salt believed in that sort of thing.

Secondly, I don't know these stories. Can you provide a link to them? After I've read them, I can answer more fully.

Until then, I can only repeat that Christianity has always held that paganism, especially Greek paganism (surprise! surprise!), had some handle on the truth. Thus pagans believed vaguely in what the gospel revealed much more fully. So on a Christian account, it's not surprising that pagan myths should have elements that foreshadow or mimic the Christian story.

I'm sure also that historians would dispute with you about what those original icons in the catacombs portrayed. If they were painted by Christians, they depicted Mary and Jesus certainly. They would have employed halos to depict holiness, but then what else could they have used, given that that particular symbol of Horus had come to convey that sort of religious meaning? Thus the icons subverted rather than adopted the pagan perspective by implying that it's not Horus and the gang, but Jesus and his mother who are holy and worthy of honor.

 

[Azakel]

I can. You really want a list of God-Men just like Jesus, who performed his same miracles, long before his time? Here goes.

Dionysus was born during the Yule season, to a virgin, human mother and a Godly father. He turned water into wine. He walked on water. He was crucified and resurrected 3 days later.

Osiris was murdered and ressurected.

Isis could raise the dead, turn water into wine, and was the virgin-mother to of Horus. Horus' human father's name was Seb, translated roughly, means Joseph. Horus was born in a manger, his birth marked by stars in the East.

Horus was a child teacher at the Temple at age 12. He was baptized at age 30. He had 12 disciples. He delivered a Sermon on the Mount. He was crucified between two theives, buried in a tomb, and ressurected three days later....

I can continue, if you wish.

Thank you Oh Goddess C_1 ^_^. I must admit I really don't know a whole lot about European Pagan Gods. I'm more of one that's into Eastern(Asian) Gods/Goddess.

 

[gnomon]

Just throw a pagan and a Christian at each other and see if they stick.

 

[Dunemeister]

I can. You really want a list of God-Men just like Jesus, who performed his same miracles, long before his time? Here goes.

Dionysus was born during the Yule season, to a virgin, human mother and a Godly father. He turned water into wine. He walked on water. He was crucified and resurrected 3 days later.

Osiris was murdered and ressurected.

Isis could raise the dead, turn water into wine, and was the virgin-mother to of Horus. Horus' human father's name was Seb, translated roughly, means Joseph. Horus was born in a manger, his birth marked by stars in the East.

Horus was a child teacher at the Temple at age 12. He was baptized at age 30. He had 12 disciples. He delivered a Sermon on the Mount. He was crucified between two theives, buried in a tomb, and ressurected three days later....

I can continue, if you wish.

These all seem very surface-level similarities, certainly not enough to show that Christianity owes its shape or content to paganism. Could you please supply some references so I can verify that you've represented the stories fairly in their contexts (not to mention understood their meaning)? Thanks.

(There's also the point that no pagans said of Christianity, "Hey, that's just like Dionysius! What's so special about Jesus, then?" That's part of what makes me suspicious that modern reconstructionists are getting both Christianity and ancient paganism badly wrong.)

 

[McBell]

Just throw a pagan and a Christian at each other and see if they stick.

my wife and I are going on ten years together and yes, at times it was "sticky"
(I will allow ya'll to make your own assumptions)

 

[Dunemeister]

Please explain this statement. Who are you to say what anyone does, doesn't, did or didn't believe?

Sorry, I missed this. Ancient pagans didn't believe in resurrection. They may have held to various afterlife views, but not one of them involved the possibility that a real, flesh-and-blood human being could die and then come back to immortal life. Such a view was revolting to first-century pagans, most of whom saw the flesh as somehow corrupt and base, preferring a spiritual existence without a body. In their eyes, resurrection was probably a worse outcome than nonexistence!

 

[Kcnorwood]

I think this has the best shot at being considered as Christian borrowing from paganism. The problem with it is that it seems historically wrong. When the church debated with itself and its opponents about the nature of the god they were talking about, nobody once referred to pagan deities. Pagan opponents of Christianity didn't say "Hey, what's all the fuss? You're just talking about Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades -- yawn!" Nor did the Christians make eager comparisons with the pagan gods they knew about.
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Perhaps but when your being told convert or die I highly doubt that idea crossed thier mind at the time. Why would the Christians say any comparision to the Pagan gods? That would be like shooting yourself in the foot. The fact that the church used the pentgram was used to repersent the first five books of the bible was even more proof.
One of the earllist creation myth that of the Sumerians of Mesopotamia in which nammu, the primeval sea gave birth to the sky God An & the earth God KI. He begat Nanna, the moon who in turned fatherd Uta, the sun. Enil who imprereganted Ki, gave birth to Enki, God of water & of wisdom.Enki created the universe. His sister Nintu then created man by molding them out of clay. Sound familar?

Take the story of Satan for example He was punished for telling Adam & Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge. Anyone remember the story of promethius? He too was punished for bring fire to mankind the only difference was that Zeus only punished him & no one else.

 

[Father Heathen]

Ancient pagans didn't believe in resurrection

Can you support your assertions? Also, you do realize that there were countless pagan faiths, right. Not just one. What's this "no pagan worth his salt" stuff, as if you have some sort of standard as to judge how "pagan" someone was or wasn't.

 

[Kcnorwood]

Can you support your assertions? Also, you do realize that there were countless pagan faiths, right. Not just one. What's this "no pagan worth his salt" stuff, as if you have some sort of standard as to judge how "pagan" someone was or wasn't.

I think thats part of the problem is that many people still believe that Pagans held the same belife & worshipped the same Gods.

 

[Dunemeister]

Can you support your assertions? Also, you do realize that there were countless pagan faiths, right. Not just one. What's this "no pagan worth his salt" stuff, as if you have some sort of standard as to judge how "pagan" someone was or wasn't.

To be fair, I have in mind only the pagans that were living in and around Palestine in the first century. These pagans traced their heritage from such religious lights as Homer and such philosophical lights as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle and their heirs and successors. These are the pagans the early Christians sought to convert and, for purposes of the question of the relationship between Christianity and paganism, this is the paganism that's relevant.

It's these pagans who didn't believe in resurrection. To give you a full catalog of reasons why this statement is true would require a 700-page book or so, and since N. T. Wright has already done so in the book The Resurrection of the Son of God, I leave perusing that tome as homework. If I have time, I may offer some examples as taken from the book to demonstrate the point. But as I said, a full treatment of the first century Palestinian situation is simply not feasible in a forum format.

 

[Father Heathen]

These are the pagans the early Christians sought to convert and, for purposes of the question of the relationship between Christianity and paganism, this is the paganism that's relevant.

So you're saying that those who penned the gospels couldn't have possibly been familiar with other pagan mythologies from other lands to "find inspiration" from?

 

[Kcnorwood]

To be fair, I have in mind only the pagans that were living in and around Palestine in the first century. These pagans traced their heritage from such religious lights as Homer and such philosophical lights as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle and their heirs and successors. These are the pagans the early Christians sought to convert and, for purposes of the question of the relationship between Christianity and paganism, this is the paganism that's relevant.
quote]


I've personally never heard of any Pagans around Palestine myself.

 

[Dunemeister]

Perhaps but when your being told convert or die I highly doubt that idea crossed thier mind at the time. Why would the Christians say any comparision to the Pagan gods? That would be like shooting yourself in the foot. The fact that the church used the pentgram was used to repersent the first five books of the bible was even more proof.
One of the earllist creation myth that of the Sumerians of Mesopotamia in which nammu, the primeval sea gave birth to the sky God An & the earth God KI. He begat Nanna, the moon who in turned fatherd Uta, the sun. Enil who imprereganted Ki, gave birth to Enki, God of water & of wisdom.Enki created the universe. His sister Nintu then created man by molding them out of clay. Sound familar?

Take the story of Satan for example He was punished for telling Adam & Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge. Anyone remember the story of promethius? He too was punished for bring fire to mankind the only difference was that Zeus only punished him & no one else.

First of all, "convert or die" wasn't an option for several centuries, at least not for the pagans. For the pagans had all the power until roughly the time of Constantine. And even then, it wasn't as though Christian troubles were over. Certainly during the time of the development of the catholic tradition (say, pre 600), Christians were not threatening pagans with death if they failed to convert.

Second, use of the pentagram to represent the five books of Moses doesn't prove that there was some sort of pagan origin to Christianity. It may mean that the church was doing what it always did -- subverting pagan symbols. By associating the pentagram with their own heritage, the church would have been changing the very meaning of the symbol. Take the cross, for example. It was the symbol of the ultimate in pagan authority and terror. But Christians turned that symbol of death into a symbol of life-giving love. The Church did the same with pagan festivals by providing alternative celebrations with Christian themes to replace the pagan ones. Thus the Church saw itself as redeeming what was pagan rather than simply destroying it outright. So, IF the church used the pentagram, and IF the pentagram was originally a pagan symbol, we can't assume that the church was adopting paganism. It could well have been subverting it. You'd need much more argument than the mere presence of the pentagram to demonstrate borrowing, much less pagan roots to Christianity.

Yes, the Sumerian myth is similar to what we find in Genesis. Note that that's in the Old Testament and constitutes part of the church's Jewish heritage. How do we account for the similarity? Did the Jews merely borrow from Sumer? Or did the Sumerians borrow from ancient Hebrews? Or did both groups share a common Semitic culture that made use of similar symbols and archetypes but invest them with different meaning? Or was the Genesis story intended as a reaction against Sumerian paganism, perhaps borrowing language and imagery, but investing them with different theological content so as to subvert the Sumerian story?

Obviously, I think it's the last possibility that's true, but whether I'm right about that is neither here nor there. My real point is that showing a surface-level similarity is not the same as showing borrowing, much less a continuity of theological perspective.

 

[Dunemeister]

I've personally never heard of any Pagans around Palestine myself.

They were known as Hellenistic Greeks. And you could expand the territory to include Asia Minor and other areas where the infant church rapidly grew.

 

[Dunemeister]

So you're saying that those who penned the gospels couldn't have possibly been familiar with other pagan mythologies from other lands to "find inspiration" from?

No. Indeed, I think they knew them quite well. But their concern was not to ape them or mimic them or draw "inspiration" from them. Their concern was to subvert and combat them. And instead of using visions and dreams (leaving Revelation aside for the moment), they resorted to history. They told stories about a rabbi who lived, ate, and drank among them for three years or so, died, and then was raised from the dead, contrary to universal expectation.

But all of this avoids what I've been saying all along. If the church were simply repackaging paganism, why didn't ancient pagans say so when confronted with the Christian gospel? Not once did pagan opponents of Christianity say "Yawn, we've heard this all before. Look at the myth of Prometheus...." Why didn't they do that? Perhaps it's because they (who were closer to the texts and culture than we were) didn't make those connections. Why didn't they make them? Perhaps it's because the connections weren't there. WE make these connections because WE, 2000 years later and without historical perspective, IMPOSE these connections. Perhaps we'd better take seriously the idea that the ancient pagans knew whereof they spoke (and heard). Perhaps we'd better admit that if these obvious connections really were so obvious that the earliest opponents of Christianity would have made some mention of them. They didn't because, in their expert opinion, the Christian story really was something new and unexpected, without precedent in existing pagan mythologies.