Christianity and religious pluralism

[Christian Pilgrim]

Great discussion guys. It's nice to see an honest, respectful probing of an interesting topic.

NM, what you said, it's not all that bad. I agree. There are those times when you think about someone you love, or someone who gives selflessly to others, or perhaps when you hold a brand new baby in your arms. At least for me, those are the times that give me chills. When I think about the people in my life that I love, and who love me. I feel like there is something more to our existence than that of seagulls. Sure, some of us choose to be nothing more than animals living by the same laws. But every once in a while, something brings us out. Something connects us and a spark of human greatness comes out. Feelings stir. Powerful emotions. The most powerful of these being love. I can't find myself ascribing these things to mere herd instinct. You know what I mean?

It is interesting that the Bible reveals that mankind is made in God's image, and God gave humans dominion over all other creatures.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

My former Orthodox priest is very firm about not mixing up Orthodoxy with other religions, including other forms of Christianity. But he asked me once, speaking of fundamentalists, "Do they really think that everybody who doesn't believe as they do is going to hell?"

I told him that, yes, most of them do believe that. He just shook his head sadly. "That's remarkable."

Was your former Orthodox Priest and universalist? How did he reconcile the idea that sinners apart from Christ were going to enter Heaven, and on what basis? Isn't the central theme of Christianity about Jesus Christ being the Savior, saving sinners from their sins to the glory and praise of God? "God demonstrated His love for us (Christians), that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Christians)" - Bible paraphrase

 

[Smoke]

Was your former Orthodox Priest and universalist?

No.

How did he reconcile the idea that sinners apart from Christ were going to enter Heaven, and on what basis?

As somebody who takes the teachings of Jesus seriously, he simply does not presume to judge. Nor does he presume to set limits on the ability of God to save sinners. Bear in mind that Orthodox theology does not, as Western theology sometimes does, presume to know the answer to every question. It's content to leave some things as mysteries. In the words of Theophan the Recluse: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins."

 

[*Paul*]

For me the gospel that saves is unique to biblical Christianity, it is defined in the bible and without it a person is lost forever.

This being the case any religion which offers a salvation different to the one that is offered through the biblical gospel is the invention of Satan to keep man from reconciliation with God.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

For me the gospel that saves is unique to biblical Christianity, it is defined in the bible and without it a person is lost forever.

This being the case any religion which offers a salvation different to the one that is offered through the biblical gospel is the invention of Satan to keep man from reconciliation with God.

Thanks for sharing your belief which we seem to be like-minded. It also seems that even within professing Christianity, the road is much more narrow than most professing Christians think.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Paul

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. - Jesus

 

[DarkSun]

Thanks for sharing your belief which we seem to be like-minded. It also seems that even within professing Christianity, the road is much more narrow than most professing Christians think.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Paul

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. - Jesus

There are very few gospels on earth whose deeper meanings are contrary, though. The superficial doctrine which declares what actually happened: sure, that's different. But the philsophies toward life are fundamentally the same within all world-religions. This deeper meaning is concurrent with the Bible's messages, so people are not completely lost if they are not Christian.

 

[DarkSun]

No.

As somebody who takes the teachings of Jesus seriously, he simply does not presume to judge. Nor does he presume to set limits on the ability of God to save sinners. Bear in mind that Orthodox theology does not, as Western theology sometimes does, presume to know the answer to every question. It's content to leave some things as mysteries. In the words of Theophan the Recluse: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins."

I am more inclined to agree with this mind-set. It is up to God to judge; not us.

That is more than enough reason to be accepting and tolerant of other belief systems.

Frubals.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

There are very few gospels on earth whose deeper meanings are contrary, though. The superficial doctrine which declares what actually happened: sure, that's different. But the philsophies toward life are fundamentally the same within all world-religions. This deeper meaning is concurrent with the Bible's messages, so people are not completely lost if they are not Christian.

I think the Christian gospel is quite different than the other gospels of this world. Gospel means news or good news. The Christian gospel is the good news of God revealed to mankind.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

To answer your OP, I am am advocate for pluralism in all aspects of society, not only religion. Unity between and tolerance of all faiths regardless of the superficial differences is something that should be strived for. It is something worth trying to attain.

And it should not be hard, too. There are certain universal truths which co-exist in all religions world-wide, irrespective of whether literal doctrine or dogma are the same. I do not believe that God will judge us based on what we believe happened 2000 years ago according to our own scriptures, but on what we do with every moment we are given. God will judge us based on who we have loved, and how devoted we are to the creator, whatsoever we believe Him to be.

Romans 2: 14-16 affirms this viewpoint when it says:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

​

So yes, I believe that there are other pathways through which we may reach God. The Bible even states that the most important laws in scripture are "Do not murder do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,and 'love your neighbor as yourself." (Matt 19:19)

In contrast with Romans 2: 14-16; this piece of scripture states that the most vital "law" that needs to be upheld are values which all religions share: "don't kill, don't steal, don't speak falsely." I believe that God will judge us according to the nature of our heart.

So from that standpoint, yes, as long as you are a good person, you still have a good chance of getting into Heaven. Christ died for us so that we could know the truthL that God is love. He did not die for us so that we would be condemned if we do not believe exactly the same thing.

I absolutely agree. We are judged by what we do with what we know. We all have access to basic truth. Follow this and you will find your way into God's presence.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

I absolutely agree. We are judged by what we do with what we know. We all have access to basic truth. Follow this and you will find your way into God's presence.

What do you think about this Bible verse and what you believe and posted? I'm not sure this Bible verse allows a sinner to have peace with God apart from knowing God through Jesus Christ, do you?

The Judgment at Christ's Coming - 1 Thes

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[ayani]

amen.

and that's the funny thing about Christian faith, for many non-Christians.

certainly outside the faith, i found Christian beliefs remarkably narrow, limiting, and even silly.

"why Jesus of Nazareth? why only Him, and why through Him? can't a person find and know God on their own? what about the religious faith and spiritual lives of Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims? do they count for nothing, and can God not be found through many faiths?"

and many Christians grapple with these issues, too.

my answer would be, again, that many world faiths do contain truths in them. and that certainly, a person can come to have a deeper appreciation of their own spiritual need, and of core values such as the preciousness of life, the worth of seeking something meaningful beyond the material and the hedonistic, etc.

and yes, through their own insights and reason, a person can come to the conclusion that there is a God, or an Absolute, Over-Arching, Unifying and Innately Meaningful Something / Someone at work in and behind the universe. isn't that what Lao Tzu and Guru Nanak essentially did? and yes, a person can on their own do their best to live lives which are grateful, thoughtful, loving, and grounded. and those aren't bad things, by a long shot.

but in the Christian worldview, these things are not enough. our own insights, efforts, and walking along life's path can only take us so far. we can be personally and eternally reconciled to the God who made us, in this life, and perfectly in the life to come. we needn't seek, wonder, or wander.

in the end, what makes Christian faith unique is not a church or its creeds. it's not the opinions or beliefs of Christians, either. it's the Man, the Prophet from Nazareth, who He is in relation to God, and to us, and how and why this matters so much. and it's this unique relationship between the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and this lowly, remarkable, and unforgettable Man from Galilee which makes Jesus so special, so different, and so unlike any one else. and so unlike any of us, too.

yes, these issues are primarily issues of faith, though there's no shortage of men and women who have come to Christian faith through carefully and logically studying the internal and external evidence and the logical likelihood that the Biblical Christ *is* the historical Christ, and that He really is who He says He is.

i asked God two question the evening i became a Christian. of course miracles and signs from God are very subjective, and the sure truth of many such reports necessarily contradict or cancel out others. (a new prophet seems to come around daily these days, claiming divine revelation and a sure path to God, and both Christians and Muslims claim that uncanny designs on walls or fish scales indicates that their god is supreme, and their worldview correct). in the end my greatest evidence for Christ comes both from the unseen and spiritual, and the logical.

every Christian comes to trust and follow Jesus from his or her own background. so every Christian has a story. and also reasons, as much grounded in experience as in evidence, and logical points reached.

Thank you for that amazing and wonderful post about the historic person of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible. Christianity is centered around Jesus Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, look who's back. Found any fish lately?

 

[ayani]

In the words of Theophan the Recluse: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins."

this is an interesting position. and of course, can be taken to a Christian-and-nonChristian context as well.

and yet, Jesus Himself within the Gospels points to Himself as the Savior, and uniquely so. He points to a unique relationship between Himself and the Father (which He would like to share with us), and One Way to be reconciled to God.

from John's Gospel :

Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. (John 1:12-13)

yes, God will take care of each person, according to what they have done, believed, understood, and accepted or rejected. (Luke 12:47-48, Romans 2:6) yet God also points us to His Son, through whom we can be saved, born again, reconciled to Him, and assured of eternal salvation.

and those who know Him, Smoke, and have known who He is and what He does, are asked to share His name and Person with the world (Matthew 28:18-21). in fact, if one has known Him and trusted Him, and seen the difference He makes, one will want to. speak of His uniqueness, great love, power to save, of His words, doings, and teachings, and of who He is in relation to us, and the God who made us.

so we [Christians] are called to correct our brothers and sisters who err, to do so with love and also with clarity. we are called to point to and share Jesus Christ. yes, we are called to remove the plank form our own eyes, before helping our brother with the speck in his. but that command in relation to sin does not mean that we keep quiet about God's Son, or allow others to remain uninformed about Him, should they ask us, or should we be given the chance to tell them.

 

[lunamoth]

What do you think about this Bible verse and what you believe and posted? I'm not sure this Bible verse allows a sinner to have peace with God apart from knowing God through Jesus Christ, do you?

The Judgment at Christ's Coming - 1 Thes

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I could not find this in 1 Thessalonians. Where is it from?

 

[lunamoth]

It's content to leave some things as mysteries. In the words of Theophan the Recluse: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins."

I like this quote and agree with it, and also have great appreciation for how the EO leaves things as Mystery. Very similar to how our church approaches things.

Along those lines but from CS Lewis:

Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him. But in the meantime, if you are worried about the people outside, the most unreasonable thing you can do is to remain outside yourself. Christians are Christ's body, the organism thorugh which He works. Every addition to that body enables Him to do more. If you want to help those outside you must add your own little cell to the body of Christ who alone can help them. Cutting off a man's fingers would be an odd way of getting him to do more work.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

I could not find this in 1 Thessalonians. Where is it from?

Sorry.

Here's the right reference: 2 Thessalonians 1

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

For me the gospel that saves is unique to biblical Christianity, it is defined in the bible and without it a person is lost forever.

This being the case any religion which offers a salvation different to the one that is offered through the biblical gospel is the invention of Satan to keep man from reconciliation with God.

But in some ways, biblical Christianity isn't all that unique. For instance: "By this shall men know if ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." Couldn't anyone have love one to another? And wouldn't that qualify them as a follower of Christ? There are many things that the Bible teaches that are taught elsewhere. Are you saying that those other sources are false because they aren't the Bible?

This quote sums it up for me:
12Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. 13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticethhttp://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/7/13b to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspiredhttp://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/7/13d of God.

 

[lunamoth]

Sorry.

Here's the right reference: 2 Thessalonians 1

Thank you for the reference.

The second part of the quote is a tautology, if you refuse God you don't have God, if you refuse Christ you don''t have Christ, if you refuse being you don't have being. It also appears to be written to give courage and comfort to a new Christian community facing affliction from those outside the community.

So, you are Fish Hunter returned?

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

But in some ways, biblical Christianity isn't all that unique. For instance: "By this shall men know if ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." Couldn't anyone have love one to another? And wouldn't that qualify them as a follower of Christ? There are many things that the Bible teaches that are taught elsewhere. Are you saying that those other sources are false because they aren't the Bible?

This quote sums it up for me:
12Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. 13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

In the LDS Christian Faith, can some be reconciled to God apart from believing in Jesus Christ?

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Thank you for the reference.

The second part of the quote is a tautology, if you refuse God you don't have God, if you refuse Christ you don''t have Christ, if you refuse being you don't have being. It also appears to be written to give courage and comfort to a new Christian community facing affliction from those outside the community.

So, you are Fish Hunter returned?

You're the third person to make that same remark about Fish Hunter. Did you like Fish Hunter? If so, did you guys want me to be Fish Hunter for the fun of it? Here's another tough verse.

1 John 5
Overcoming the World

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Testimony Concerning the Son of God

This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

That You May Know

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.