Christianity and the State

[ForeverFaithful]

I've been wondering a lot recently what perspective we should have on the state. The theologian Bonhoeffer felt it was right to oppose an unjust state(I would cite Judges and Saint Joan of Arc) but at times the church has been silent or wanted to be the state, what should we do, are there any notable theologians who talk about this and/or could you give me your own opinion.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

This sums it up:

Romans 13

Submission to Governing Authorities

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

This sums it up:

To bring in the counter arguement

Acts 5:29: "We must obey the laws of God, not men"

In the context of tax paying and issues not mentioned in scripture, this passage is perfect, but I think it's a bit harder then that

 

[Gjallarhorn]

To bring in the counter arguement

Acts 5:29: "We must obey the laws of God, not men"

In the context of tax paying and issues not mentioned in scripture, this passage is perfect, but I think it's a bit harder then that

Well, Paul says that the laws of men are to some extent the laws of God, so it gets tricky.

 

[Mister Emu]

Follow the laws of the State except where they demand you act in a way opposed to Christianity.

 

[Storm]

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[ChristineES]

I think the following verses tell us what to do:


Matthew 22:19-21 Show me the coin for the tax." And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said, "Caesar's." Then he said to them, "Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

 

[Biblestudent_007]

In the United States Hopefully we are protecting the Constitution. Listening to the White House, House of Congress and the Judicial Branch. Change can happen at the local government level ~ Not just at the Nation's Capitol Washington D.C.

 

[Nadia Faiazova]

Hi! Church or the congreagation should not interfere with any political instituion. Jesus taught:"If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU."- John 15:19.
A true Christian should not be involved in any political matters, because then he stands under the rule of the "Wicked one", sho is Devil. Satan the Devil is the ruler of this World- 1 John 5:19. In such way the person opposes God.

 

[Pegg]

I've been wondering a lot recently what perspective we should have on the state. The theologian Bonhoeffer felt it was right to oppose an unjust state(I would cite Judges and Saint Joan of Arc) but at times the church has been silent or wanted to be the state, what should we do, are there any notable theologians who talk about this and/or could you give me your own opinion.

If you examine what the scriptures have to say on the matter, perhaps you will be able to develop your own opinion on the subject...


Did Jesus view Gods Kingdom as part of the world and its governmental structure?
John 17:16 They are no part of the world, just as I (Jesus) am no part of the world
John 18:36 Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”

According to Jesus, we are not only answerable to this worlds governments, we must also render to God the things he requires of us, so what does that tell you about how much allegiance we should have toward our governments?
Luke 20:21 And they questioned him,...22 Is it lawful for us to pay tax to Caesar or not?” 23 But he detected their cunning and said to them: 24 “Show me a de‧nar′i‧us. Whose image and inscription does it have?” They said: “Caesar’s.” 25 He said to them: “By all means, then, pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”


The prophet Daniel saw a vision of Gods Kingdom and the extent of its rulership, he also saw the outcome of the worlds governments. Based on this, what does it tell us about how God views human rulerships? And shouldn't we view them the same way?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite

Daniel also pointed out who God wants to rule the earth. So we should question ourselves as to who we vote for? Is it the same person...or some other person?
Daniel 7:14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

What does the scriptures say about who to trust?
Psalm 146: 3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.
4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish. 5 Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob for his help,
Whose hope is in Jehovah his God

There is a biblical principle which implies that we may be responsible for the wrongs committed by another person if we supported that person...so in terms of voting for individuals into positions of power, are you prepared to bare some responsibility for the mistakes he makes?
1Timothy 22 Never lay your hands hastily upon any man; neither be a sharer in the sins of others; preserve yourself chaste

 

[gdemoss]

I've been wondering a lot recently what perspective we should have on the state. The theologian Bonhoeffer felt it was right to oppose an unjust state(I would cite Judges and Saint Joan of Arc) but at times the church has been silent or wanted to be the state, what should we do, are there any notable theologians who talk about this and/or could you give me your own opinion.

sedition is sin (Gal V)

se·di·tion   [si-dish-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
incitement of discontent or rebellion against a government.
2.
any action, especially in speech or writing, promoting such discontent or rebellion.
3.
Archaic . rebellious disorder.

Should we obey God?

A true Christian government cannot work with the currently established democracy. You would need true Christians elected to office. Narrow is the path and few there be that find it. In a democracy, majority rules. Christians will never be the majority until Christ sets up his kingdom. Pray for our leaders, that they would come to the knowledge of the truth. Not for our sake but theirs.

 

[vaporvic]

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one the the great theologians of this past century, but when he referenced opposing an unjust government he was speaking to the fact that the majority of German church leaders acquiesced to the Nazi party, allowing them to take over the church, rather than make a stand for Christ.Very few German church leaders opposed this. Bonhoeffer was one of them. He was eventually martyred for Christ in a Nazi concentration camp.

There has never been a parallel with the American separation of church and state.

America is not perfect, but it is the best that fallen man has been able to come up with, and will most likely remain the best until Christ returns.

We live in a fallen world. What exactly is our expectation? That those without the Spirit of God would understand the things of the Spirit? That they would please God? It is impossible for them to do so, as Scripture clearly states.

The bottom line is that God is Sovereign and he gives the kingdoms of men to whomever He pleases, to accomplish His purposes, whether we understand them or not. The early church was persecuted for hundreds of years. They did not revolt, they submitted in humility and suffered as Christ suffered. They died in droves for the faith.

We are commanded to love our enemies. Period. Sedition means revolution and revolution means people will die without the opportunity to hear the gospel or to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

We are told to submit to Christ and to submit to the governing authorities. We are not in Southern Sudan here, being tortured for Christ...

Nowhere does Jesus command us to revolt. The revolution is in the heart of the person who comes to know Him!

vaporvic

Matthew 5
James 4:14

 

[ForeverFaithful]

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one the the great theologians of this past century, but when he referenced opposing an unjust government he was speaking to the fact that the majority of German church leaders acquiesced to the Nazi party, allowing them to take over the church, rather than make a stand for Christ.Very few German church leaders opposed this. Bonhoeffer was one of them. He was eventually martyred for Christ in a Nazi concentration camp.

There has never been a parallel with the American separation of church and state.

America is not perfect, but it is the best that fallen man has been able to come up with, and will most likely remain the best until Christ returns.

We live in a fallen world. What exactly is our expectation? That those without the Spirit of God would understand the things of the Spirit? That they would please God? It is impossible for them to do so, as Scripture clearly states.

The bottom line is that God is Sovereign and he gives the kingdoms of men to whomever He pleases, to accomplish His purposes, whether we understand them or not. The early church was persecuted for hundreds of years. They did not revolt, they submitted in humility and suffered as Christ suffered. They died in droves for the faith.

We are commanded to love our enemies. Period. Sedition means revolution and revolution means people will die without the opportunity to hear the gospel or to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

We are told to submit to Christ and to submit to the governing authorities. We are not in Southern Sudan here, being tortured for Christ...

Nowhere does Jesus command us to revolt. The revolution is in the heart of the person who comes to know Him!

vaporvic

Matthew 5
James 4:14

Should we vote? Should we not kill those who would kill those who can't hear the gospel or prevent them from hearing it?

 

[vaporvic]

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous"

Matthew 5:43-45

 

[ForeverFaithful]

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous"

Matthew 5:43-45

Is love really to stay ideally by and let your nation sink into sin?

Jer 29:7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.

 

[vaporvic]

All sin begins in the human heart, and the recognition of it begins with us as individuals. My heart is black. The only righteousness that I have comes from the blood of Jesus. The closer I come to Him, the more I realize my own hopelessness without Him and the true state of the depravity of my heart.

Yes this nation, along with the rest of the world, is spiraling ever downwards. But this is to be expected, and will get worse as we hurtle towards His return. Scripture tells us this clearly.

A few questions come to mind:

1. Do I have the power to pull this nation out of sin? No.
2. Do I have control over what other people do? No.
3. Will a revolution magically pull this nation out of sin? No.
4. Is the fallen state of both men and nations my responsibility to correct? Absolutely not.

God has never directed His people to revolution, but always to repentance. He raises up prophets to call the people to this repentance. Some people listen, others don't. We do have freewill, as non-believers and as believers.

He delivers when He chooses, and according to a plan for humanity that we do not even have the ability to comprehend. So what is our responsibility?

1. Love God.
2. Love our neighbors.
3. Proclaim the Gospel of Salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

God can change hearts. God can turn nations. Our most powerful weapon is prayer and the Good News All revivals in the history of our faith started with God's people on their knees. The battle is in the spiritual realm. The forces we fight are not visible to us.

I spent many years as a believer with a plank in my eye, and judgment in my heart. Prayer is the answer. If my heart is right before God I am submitted to Him, and He gives me His heart, which invariably leads to more prayer. For people and for nations. For salvation.

Furthermore our citizenship is not here, it is in heaven. We are sojourners, this is not our home. We need to truly believe and understand this. He doesn't need us in order to accomplish anything He purposes. He does choose to use us at times, and that is an honor, to His glory alone.

We are to promote peace, but that peace has to begin with God first, before it has any hope with man. It is impossible for light to have peace and fellowship with dark. And prosperity? In this age true prosperity is to be in His will for us, surrendered absolutely. Dead to our self. Crucified with Christ. It is not financial, as is being taught in so many churches. Jesus was homeless. He was despised. He was poor, both in this realm and in the spiritual realm. He had a broken and contrite heart. His example to us was humility and love.

God is Sovereign. He is in control.

In Christ-

vic

 

[ForeverFaithful]

All sin begins in the human heart, and the recognition of it begins with us as individuals. My heart is black. The only righteousness that I have comes from the blood of Jesus. The closer I come to Him, the more I realize my own hopelessness without Him and the true state of the depravity of my heart.

Yes this nation, along with the rest of the world, is spiraling ever downwards. But this is to be expected, and will get worse as we hurtle towards His return. Scripture tells us this clearly.

A few questions come to mind:

1. Do I have the power to pull this nation out of sin? No.
2. Do I have control over what other people do? No.
3. Will a revolution magically pull this nation out of sin? No.
4. Is the fallen state of both men and nations my responsibility to correct? Absolutely not.

God has never directed His people to revolution, but always to repentance. He raises up prophets to call the people to this repentance. Some people listen, others don't. We do have freewill, as non-believers and as believers.

He delivers when He chooses, and according to a plan for humanity that we do not even have the ability to comprehend. So what is our responsibility?

1. Love God.
2. Love our neighbors.
3. Proclaim the Gospel of Salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

God can change hearts. God can turn nations. Our most powerful weapon is prayer and the Good News All revivals in the history of our faith started with God's people on their knees. The battle is in the spiritual realm. The forces we fight are not visible to us.

I spent many years as a believer with a plank in my eye, and judgment in my heart. Prayer is the answer. If my heart is right before God I am submitted to Him, and He gives me His heart, which invariably leads to more prayer. For people and for nations. For salvation.

Furthermore our citizenship is not here, it is in heaven. We are sojourners, this is not our home. We need to truly believe and understand this. He doesn't need us in order to accomplish anything He purposes. He does choose to use us at times, and that is an honor, to His glory alone.

We are to promote peace, but that peace has to begin with God first, before it has any hope with man. It is impossible for light to have peace and fellowship with dark. And prosperity? In this age true prosperity is to be in His will for us, surrendered absolutely. Dead to our self. Crucified with Christ. It is not financial, as is being taught in so many churches. Jesus was homeless. He was despised. He was poor, both in this realm and in the spiritual realm. He had a broken and contrite heart. His example to us was humility and love.

God is Sovereign. He is in control.

In Christ-

vic

I can respect your beliefs but I can't say you've convinced me

Many great and holy men where warriors such as David and Samson,
Paul in Romans 13 calls the state a Godly institute, why can't a Christian serve in it?
Jesus came to complete the law not to abolish it, an eye for an eye was a policy for the government to limit how much punishment they could rightly give, a common abuse of that by the Jewish people of the first century was to take things into their own hands, thus Jesus rejected it.

Jesus encourages his disciplines to be armed (Luke 22:36) and never once condemns a solider or policeman for the use of force, suggest, to me anyways, that there is some just use of force. Paul also draws on a lot of illustrations of soldiers and the military in his teaching, which leads me to believe he wasn't going out of his way to condone such profession. We also see Jesus as a mighty warrior who will bring justice in the Book of Revelation

I'm not suggesting any kind of revolution, however Christian Just War theory seems consistent with the New Testament. Pacifism taken to it full extend leads to anarchy, which is odd, as Paul praises the state and God allots states their share in time, on top of picking a nation to be his people

 

[ID_Neon]

The Body of Christ does not go to war, when did Jesus ever fight anyone? Therefore any war fought is an instrument of this world in which Christians must determine if it is worthy of fighting.

 

[Knowledge]

I've been wondering a lot recently what perspective we should have on the state. The theologian Bonhoeffer felt it was right to oppose an unjust state(I would cite Judges and Saint Joan of Arc) but at times the church has been silent or wanted to be the state, what should we do, are there any notable theologians who talk about this and/or could you give me your own opinion.

Its possible to "form or create" a Christian State with government archictecture.