Christianity has a real dark history,Has it changed much?

[dfnj]

The church and Christianity has demonstrated a disregard for human freedom,dignity,and self-determination.
It sounds the same to me so far, except reincarnation, what do you think?

You premise is wrong. Religion does not invent or control human nature. You can make the same blanket statement with science:

The results of science in creating weapons has demonstrated a disregard for human freedom,dignity,and self-determination. Science is the root cause of all human suffering because it gives tools to the worse people to do the most harm to other people. For example, since 9/11, over 2,000,000 Arabs have died in the ME as result of US bombing.​

Now someone who loves science might say science did not cause 2,000,000 deaths but people using the results of science did. Well, the same thing is true with religion. Religion does not cause human nature. Human nature exists or existed before the invention of religion. If you argument is religion is making things worse then I disagree. Human nature is human nature.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

1. You cannot condemn an entire ideology because 'some' do not adhere to the standards of the ideology.

Certainly raises a lot of questions when all the leading factions can't agree on A LOT of items. It's a "No True Scotsman" world out there for Christianity, every day, all day.

2. HUMAN BEINGS, and their flaws and tendencies, cause evil, not 'Christianity!'

Sure, I'll admit it is the combination. The combination of a desire to do something that isn't exactly "on the level", and the grand-scale justification of "God told me so" to excuse the behavior. Christianity, the religion, is the "God told me so" part - which allows and has been used as support for the justification of terrible things.

3. It would need to be shown that the ideology is promoting the behavior being criticized.. genocide, oppression, murder, etc. Christianity, as an ideology, promotes the opposite.

Seriously? When God can explicitly tell people they can go in to enemy territory, murder everyone, take the women? When God can describe the ways in which you are allowed to oppress people through the slave-trade? When God commands the stoning of individuals for petty "crimes?" PARTS of Christianity's doctrine promote good-will toward your fellow man, and parts of it DO NOT. This really can't be rationally denied - one can only choreograph a gymnastic routine of excuses.

4. Christianity has been a beacon of freedom, enlightenment, and equality, and is the foundation of western civilization.

The practice and enforcement of religious freedom is what can be credited with this. Not Christianity.

5. In the last 50 yrs, a constant propaganda stream demonizing Christianity, and blaming it for all the evil in the world has been indoctrinated in progressive institutions, competing to be the dominant worldview.

And prior to that, there was just a lot more ignoring, waving away, and excusing of all the terrible things in The Bible. People were raised with it, and so it seemed "normal" - but it is incredibly abnormal, and terrible, and many of our societies have grown beyond its 2,000 year old prescriptions for living a "right" life. It's too old to be relevant, and people are only now realizing it - no longer feeling compelled to smile and nod when people tell them that all the terrible things written in The Bible are all just "part of the plan." It's a stupid plan, and that fact is being put on display more and more often, and people are wising up.

 

[Audie]

How about you and I get into the dark history of the New Age movement like how it is rooted in the pernicious racism of Madam Blavatsky, the schizophrenic posturings of Edgar Cayce and the charlantries of J.Z Knight and others of their ilk. I sure didn't see anything big happen during that Harmonic Convergence thing.

OMG the attack of the Whatabouts!!
All shall fall before their might.

 

[1213]

...what do you think?

I like that I can read the Bible without atheistic interpretations.

 

[Lee Hays]

The church and Christianity has demonstrated a disregard for human freedom,dignity,and self-determination.
It has attempted to control,contain and confine spirituality,the relationship between an individual and God.As a result, Christianity has helped create a society in which people are alienated not only from each other but also from the divine.
The Christian Church since Old have embedded in the belief of a solely masculine authoritarian God who demands unquestioning obedience and who punishes those who doesn't.also that fear was essential to sustain Christians.
.Within the 1st centuries of the Christian era they formed the ideological foundation for much of the dark side of the Christian Church history (100-400 C.E.).
Christian church based not upon love and support but upon fear. The Bible repeatedly exhorts people to fear God and keep his commandments, this was the duty of man.It was also in belief that God must be prone to anger to demand disciple,at this time God was to believed to have masculine and feminine aspects.
One shroud accept and submit to whatever the Church reaches.
Between 200-500 C.E. Christianity became the official religion for the Roman Empire. and they revised Christian writings to make Christianity more acceptable, they chose form many gospels and writings to construct the bible,them the church edited ti's messages with each translation and Gospel scholars showed that a few of the gospels9scriptures contradict one another,but let it remain.
300-500C.E. the church formulated it's doctrine to justifies it's use of force in order .
Some of the doctrine is as follows:a person can have free will and responsible for his actions.
Condemning sexual please because it is evil.
Th Church formulated it's position regarding reincarnation. The Christian scholar believed and that the human soul exists before it is incarnated into a physical body that the human soul passe from one body to another on earth until he is reunited with God after total enlightenment..It wasn't until 533 the Second Council decided to remove that from the doctrine, and told the Christians not to believe this at all. His reasoning was because if a soul continues to live and incarnate lifetime after lifetime he won't be subject to damnation, he had to maintain that control. I got more info to come.
It sounds the same to me so far, except reincarnation, what do you think?

Find the center of the Bible -
Psalms 118:8
(594 chapters before & 594 chapters after = totaling 1118)
Basically saying - don’t put your trust in “Man” place your trust in God.

Yes “Christians” have a “dark past”
Most Christians would say the same to their own life. And wouldn’t you agree that the world itself has a dark past?

The biggest problem Christians have is - their human. And most “Christians” don’t qualify to be Christian.
But Thank God - for Jesus!
We don’t have to be Christian, or Jewish - we just have to accept the truth - that Jesus died for our sins!

 

[SugarOcean]

THISISWHATITHINKTOOWHENISEEANOTHERTHREADONHOWBADCHRISTIANITYISSUPPOSEDTOBEHAVENTWEHADENOUGHTHISWEEK?

APPARENTLYNOTIFYOUVENOTICEDTHECONDITIONISKNOWNASHATREDANDALSOSADO-MASOCHISMDEMONSTRATEDBYTHOSEWHOREPEATEDLYMAKETHESETYPETHREADS.

ANDTHOSETHREADSTHATSEEKTOMISLEADCHRISTIANSTOWARDBLASPHEMOUSFAKEDOCTRINESOFTHEMEMBERSOWNIMAGININGSSOTHATTHEYTHENFEELACCOMPLISHEDTHEYTHENHAVEACHRISTIANFOLLOWINGTHEM.

THOSEPEOPLEAREDEEPLYLOSTANDSEEKINGATTENTION

 

[Lee Hays]

APPARENTLYNOTIFYOUVENOTICEDTHECONDITIONISKNOWNASHATREDANDALSOSADO-MASOCHISMDEMONSTRATEDBYTHOSEWHOREPEATEDLYMAKETHESETYPETHREADS.

ANDTHOSETHREADSTHATSEEKTOMISLEADCHRISTIANSTOWARDBLASPHEMOUSFAKEDOCTRINESOFTHEMEMBERSOWNIMAGININGSSOTHATTHEYTHENFEELACCOMPLISHEDTHEYTHENHAVEACHRISTIANFOLLOWINGTHEM.

THOSEPEOPLEAREDEEPLYLOSTANDSEEKINGATTENTION

I have never noticed that condition
And you must not have noticed the space bar...

 

[SugarOcean]

I have never noticed that condition
And you must not have noticed the space bar...

You did not notice to whom I replied in kind.And I quoted them so how did you miss that?

 

[usfan]

Certainly raises a lot of questions when all the leading factions can't agree on A LOT of items. It's a "No True Scotsman" world out there for Christianity, every day, all day.

There is confusion, as to the clear, historical definition of Christianity, but that is due to propaganda and deception, not the teachings of Jesus.

There is an historical, precise and exegetical definition of Christianity , as laid out by the Founder and His earliest followers.

Sure, I'll admit it is the combination. The combination of a desire to do something that isn't exactly "on the level", and the grand-scale justification of "God told me so" to excuse the behavior. Christianity, the religion, is the "God told me so" part - which allows and has been used as support for the justification of terrible things.

Unless the ideology compels or approves the behavior, it is illogical and a prejudicial smear to blame the ideology for the actions of individuals.

Christianity's doctrine promote good-will toward your fellow man, and parts of it DO NOT. This really can't be rationally denied

This is your belief. Can you present the teachings, from Jesus, that promote your 'DO NOT!' part?

It is just an indoctrinated Narrative, driven by a competitive worldview of Progressivism.

The practice and enforcement of religious freedom is what can be credited with this. Not Christianity.

Absurd. You promote revisionism, not actual history. The reformation sparked the Enlightenment. The roots of freedom (and all the social advances in western civilization) can be DIRECTLY attributed to biblical principles and Christianity. It is absurd revisionism to believe that it just popped out of the ground, driven by atheism, or something..

Natural Law? Freedom of conscience? These are REFORMATION concepts, not something from Marxism or atheistic naturalism.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

There is confusion, as to the clear, historical definition of Christianity, but that is due to propaganda and deception, not the teachings of Jesus.

There is an historical, precise and exegetical definition of Christianity , as laid out by the Founder and His earliest followers.

Then how do so many people get it wrong? And how is it you came to be one of the ones who is doing it right?

Unless the ideology compels or approves the behavior, it is illogical and a prejudicial smear to blame the ideology for the actions of individuals.

But that's just it, justification can be found in all sorts of places within The Bible - people just have to interpret things the way they want them to sound. This happens all the time. People see what they want to, and they either pretend, or actually find the verses that support their behavior. In essence, they can find the parts of the ideology that compel or approve of the behavior easily, because there is so much stuff in The Bible that is morally questionable it is unreal.

This is your belief. Can you present the teachings, from Jesus, that promote your 'DO NOT!' part?

Jesus teaches people to be fools. Let's look at the beatitudes:

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

This is Jesus telling you not to bother being assertive, or trying to get what you want out of life - you'll get your day, says Jesus - OR WASTE YOUR ENTIRE LIFE WAITING FOR IT.​

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

This one's the worst. The message from this one is that, no matter how wrong you are told you are, no matter what other ideas you come in contact with, or who tells you that your mode of thinking is potentially broken and that you can't be trusted, no matter how downtrodden you are by society at large because your ideas are seen as crap by everyone else - don't take any of it under advisement, just keep on in your faith, because you've got heaven to look forward to. Our chastisement and criticism of one another is arguably one of our most valuable intellectual tools as a race of beings. To tell people to just ignore all criticism is foolish and dangerous.
​

To sum up, it does not promote good will toward your fellow man to instill in people that they cannot be wrong, and not to listen to anyone whose opinion differs from your own. As long as you feel "righteous" in what you're bumbling along with, "yours is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus doesn't teach "bad will" outright... but he does teach poor modes of thinking. "Be gullible, be true to what you credulously accept, and you will be rewarded." That's an entirely fair paraphrasing of Jesus' teachings about belief and admittance to heaven. And it is deplorable.

Absurd. You promote revisionism, not actual history. The reformation sparked the Enlightenment. The roots of freedom (and all the social advances in western civilization) can be DIRECTLY attributed to biblical principles and Christianity. It is absurd revisionism to believe that it just popped out of the ground, driven by atheism, or something..

I'm not saying "atheism" had anything to do with it. I'm saying people allowing one another to practice other faiths, and not a pushing of Christianity are what allowed those freedoms and ideas about other avenues of freedom to be fostered. Sure, the people who lead the charge may have been "Christian." So what? Who cares what they were? They promoted freedom, and that was the good. It's so very obvious that the teachings of The Bible don't directly equate to people fostering such freedoms, right? A simple look at much greater spans of history in societies where The Bible was the main religious text adhered to can display this. And so it took specific kinds of individuals to be at the helm to get all these freedoms put in place - the fact that they were believers as well as the drafters of modern day freedoms is irrelevant.

 

[Zita]

QUOTE="SugarOcean, post: 6159090, member: 66732"]APPARENTLYNOTIFYOUVENOTICEDTHECONDITIONISKNOWNASHATREDANDALSOSADO-MASOCHISMDEMONSTRATEDBYTHOSEWHOREPEATEDLYMAKETHESETYPETHREADS.

ANDTHOSETHREADSTHATSEEKTOMISLEADCHRISTIANSTOWARDBLASPHEMOUSFAKEDOCTRINESOFTHEMEMBERSOWNIMAGININGSSOTHATTHEYTHENFEELACCOMPLISHEDTHEYTHENHAVEACHRISTIANFOLLOWINGTHEM.

THOSEPEOPLEAREDEEPLYLOSTANDSEEKINGATTENTION[/QUOTE]

Stating the truth is all I do, not trying to lead anyone out of Christian or into witchcraft or anything else, just telling a side of Christianity a lot of people don't know,and how it came to be what it is now, some of the things still hold true today. It's not my fault Christianity when it first came about was very dark with their thoughts and actions.

 

[Zita]

Then how do so many people get it wrong? And how is it you came to be one of the ones who is doing it right?


But that's just it, justification can be found in all sorts of places within The Bible - people just have to interpret things the way they want them to sound. This happens all the time. People see what they want to, and they either pretend, or actually find the verses that support their behavior. In essence, they can find the parts of the ideology that compel or approve of the behavior easily, because there is so much stuff in The Bible that is morally questionable it is unreal.


Jesus teaches people to be fools. Let's look at the beatitudes:

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

This is Jesus telling you not to bother being assertive, or trying to get what you want out of life - you'll get your day, says Jesus - OR WASTE YOUR ENTIRE LIFE WAITING FOR IT.​

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

This one's the worst. The message from this one is that, no matter how wrong you are told you are, no matter what other ideas you come in contact with, or who tells you that your mode of thinking is potentially broken and that you can't be trusted, no matter how downtrodden you are by society at large because your ideas are seen as crap by everyone else - don't take any of it under advisement, just keep on in your faith, because you've got heaven to look forward to. Our chastisement and criticism of one another is arguably one of our most valuable intellectual tools as a race of beings. To tell people to just ignore all criticism is foolish and dangerous.
​

To sum up, it does not promote good will toward your fellow man to instill in people that they cannot be wrong, and not to listen to anyone whose opinion differs from your own. As long as you feel "righteous" in what you're bumbling along with, "yours is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus doesn't teach "bad will" outright... but he does teach poor modes of thinking. "Be gullible, be true to what you credulously accept, and you will be rewarded." That's an entirely fair paraphrasing of Jesus' teachings about belief and admittance to heaven. And it is deplorable.


I'm not saying "atheism" had anything to do with it. I'm saying people allowing one another to practice other faiths, and not a pushing of Christianity are what allowed those freedoms and ideas about other avenues of freedom to be fostered. Sure, the people who lead the charge may have been "Christian." So what? Who cares what they were? They promoted freedom, and that was the good. It's so very obvious that the teachings of The Bible don't directly equate to people fostering such freedoms, right? A simple look at much greater spans of history in societies where The Bible was the main religious text adhered to can display this. And so it took specific kinds of individuals to be at the helm to get all these freedoms put in place - the fact that they were believers as well as the drafters of modern day freedoms is irrelevant.

So true,as speaking in early Christians had a disregard for human freedom, they were very controlling. which I still see somewhat now, just back then they were hash with it and were told not to question what they are told.Actually they confined spirituality of the individual.Fear was put there to sustain the people.
God was understood to reign and so hierarchy based not upon love and support but upon fear.
that God is prone to anger and to demand discipline and punishment. today also.
Gnostic Christians understood God to be multi- faceted having both masculine and famine aspects. later only saying masculine.Also God was learned about only in Church not from personal inquiry or ones very own experience.One unquestioningly accept and submit to whatever the church said and taught!! which took away an individual freedom. Which I see some of that today.
Christianity moved to a official religion of the roman empire and they revised christian christian writings to make Christianity more acceptance, they chose different gospels to construct the bible then church edited it's messages with each translation.many have been on contradict one another.Old Christians made doctrine from many sources,sex and sexual desire was ruled evil cause St. Augustine Doctor of church had a bad experience personally,so they condemned it.

reincarnation was believed until 553,the 2nd Council of Constantinople condemned the belief and if they did they were gonna face eternal damnation,only because they would be cheating God out of his judgement day and possible condemnation .
They also said that God is in heaven and will not interact on Earth that the devil live and reigenth though out earth and the world, He was know as the prince of the air.belief was that the devil carries out God's judgment and torment sinners for all eternity.which is still in effect.

 

[Zita]

Find the center of the Bible -
Psalms 118:8
(594 chapters before & 594 chapters after = totaling 1118)
Basically saying - don’t put your trust in “Man” place your trust in God.

Yes “Christians” have a “dark past”
Most Christians would say the same to their own life. And wouldn’t you agree that the world itself has a dark past?

The biggest problem Christians have is - their human. And most “Christians” don’t qualify to be Christian.
But Thank God - for Jesus!
We don’t have to be Christian, or Jewish - we just have to accept the truth - that Jesus died for our sins!

some of those dark rules and ideas are still here today.

 

[Zita]

Als

some of those dark rules and ideas are still here today.

also the bible was written by men so aren't you putting your trust and faith in "men"

 

[Zita]

There is confusion, as to the clear, historical definition of Christianity, but that is due to propaganda and deception, not the teachings of Jesus.

There is an historical, precise and exegetical definition of Christianity , as laid out by the Founder and His earliest followers.

Unless the ideology compels or approves the behavior, it is illogical and a prejudicial smear to blame the ideology for the actions of individuals.

This is your belief. Can you present the teachings, from Jesus, that promote your 'DO NOT!' part?

It is just an indoctrinated Narrative, driven by a competitive worldview of Progressivism.

Absurd. You promote revisionism, not actual history. The reformation sparked the Enlightenment. The roots of freedom (and all the social advances in western civilization) can be DIRECTLY attributed to biblical principles and Christianity. It is absurd revisionism to believe that it just popped out of the ground, driven by atheism, or something..

Natural Law? Freedom of conscience? These are REFORMATION concepts, not something from Marxism or atheistic naturalism.

roots of freedom did not come from Christianity at all, they took your freedom away by demanding you do as they say and do and teach no questions asked!!
such as women had to be quiet and do as their husband commanded,have sex even when they didn't want to.that's not freedom, and implanted fear, that is not freedom, that is control.

 

[Zita]

Certainly raises a lot of questions when all the leading factions can't agree on A LOT of items. It's a "No True Scotsman" world out there for Christianity, every day, all day.


Sure, I'll admit it is the combination. The combination of a desire to do something that isn't exactly "on the level", and the grand-scale justification of "God told me so" to excuse the behavior. Christianity, the religion, is the "God told me so" part - which allows and has been used as support for the justification of terrible things.


Seriously? When God can explicitly tell people they can go in to enemy territory, murder everyone, take the women? When God can describe the ways in which you are allowed to oppress people through the slave-trade? When God commands the stoning of individuals for petty "crimes?" PARTS of Christianity's doctrine promote good-will toward your fellow man, and parts of it DO NOT. This really can't be rationally denied - one can only choreograph a gymnastic routine of excuses.


The practice and enforcement of religious freedom is what can be credited with this. Not Christianity.

And prior to that, there was just a lot more ignoring, waving away, and excusing of all the terrible things in The Bible. People were raised with it, and so it seemed "normal" - but it is incredibly abnormal, and terrible, and many of our societies have grown beyond its 2,000 year old prescriptions for living a "right" life. It's too old to be relevant, and people are only now realizing it - no longer feeling compelled to smile and nod when people tell them that all the terrible things written in The Bible are all just "part of the plan." It's a stupid plan, and that fact is being put on display more and more often, and people are wising up.

I strongly believe the spirit of the Christianity that was formed in old is still on Christians now.

 

[Zita]

Find the center of the Bible -
Psalms 118:8
(594 chapters before & 594 chapters after = totaling 1118)
Basically saying - don’t put your trust in “Man” place your trust in God.

Yes “Christians” have a “dark past”
Most Christians would say the same to their own life. And wouldn’t you agree that the world itself has a dark past?

The biggest problem Christians have is - their human. And most “Christians” don’t qualify to be Christian.
But Thank God - for Jesus!
We don’t have to be Christian, or Jewish - we just have to accept the truth - that Jesus died for our sins!

you are right must
Christians aren't qualified to be Christians, but they are ones who say they are the right ones and everyone is wrong. and will be punished by God.

 

[Zita]

You premise is wrong. Religion does not invent or control human nature. You can make the same blanket statement with science:

The results of science in creating weapons has demonstrated a disregard for human freedom,dignity,and self-determination. Science is the root cause of all human suffering because it gives tools to the worse people to do the most harm to other people. For example, since 9/11, over 2,000,000 Arabs have died in the ME as result of US bombing.​

Now someone who loves science might say science did not cause 2,000,000 deaths but people using the results of science did. Well, the same thing is true with religion. Religion does not cause human nature. Human nature exists or existed before the invention of religion. If you argument is religion is making things worse then I disagree. Human nature is human nature.

do you not know exactly Human nature is?It's feelings,our instincts of what should be done, an individuals way of thinking,forgiving,loving,giving,considerations,emotions and etc. so there Christianity at that time was controlling human nature by their doctrines, one example is women are to be quiet and listen.Men could not become sexually aroused and if they did it was blamed on the women.Women could not preach. They were very barbaric times.for a while man was told it's a good thing not to associate with women. so yes Christianity demonstrated a disregard for human freedom and human nature and dignity.

 

[osgart]

By default people make heaven or hell of their own lives without a God making eternal judgment on their lives.

To accept Christianity is to accept that i nor anybody else has the power within themselves to be, or do anything genuinely good.

To accept Christianity means i would have to accept that every non believer is in an eternal hell. And those that did not believe, and have faith exactly right are in hell also.

Why would an omnipotent God play a belief and faith game with our eternal fate's and destinies in the balance?

I would have to lose all sense of sense, and reason to be a Christian.

Basically God makes a reality that can be endlessly questioned, doubted, and reasoned about with no obviousness of God's presence, and expects every human to see the road to Salvation in reality.

Take it all from a book written 20 centuries ago in light of modern science.
A book where they tried to ascertain things the author couldn't possibly know. The Earth a circle in a dome with waters above and below.

Is this the longest running joke on humanity?

 

[Zita]

People are fallen and in need of redemption. Is it a surprise? Christ came to save sinners[/QUOT

By default people make heaven or hell of their own lives without a God making eternal judgment on their lives.

To accept Christianity is to accept that i nor anybody else has the power within themselves to be, or do anything genuinely good.

To accept Christianity means i would have to accept that every non believer is in an eternal hell. And those that did not believe, and have faith exactly right are in hell also.

Why would an omnipotent God play a belief and faith game with our eternal fate's and destinies in the balance?

I would have to lose all sense of sense, and reason to be a Christian.

Basically God makes a reality that can be endlessly questioned, doubted, and reasoned about with no obviousness of God's presence, and expects every human to see the road to Salvation in reality.

Take it all from a book written 20 centuries ago in light of modern science.
A book where they tried to ascertain things the author couldn't possibly know. The Earth a circle in a dome with waters above and below.

Is this the longest running joke on humanity?

Christianity attacked Muslims, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Jews because there precised as enemies, because they didn't believe as such,
.