Christianity Has Had No Effect Whatsoever On Human Morality

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Christianity Has Had No Effect Whatsoever On Human Morality"

Tell that to the thief that robs no more. Tell that to the slave trader who stopped trading slaves and wrote "Amazing Grace". To Saul, the murderer, who stopped killing--let him know that Christianity had no effect on morality. Repeat that to the cannibals who stopped eating people after receiving Jesus Christ. Tell that to me who was going to commit adultery some 30 years ago but instead I am happily married for 43 years...

You were saying?

Tell it to the Conquistadors who committed genocide in the name of converting the native Americans to Christianity. Tell it to the Christian mob that burned the Library of Alexandria. Tell it to the countless Christian slavers who used the Bible to defend their practice. Tell it to the parents who let their children die because they think prayer is a substitute for medicine. Tell it to the casualties of every war where Christians on both sides claimed that God was with them.

 

[joe1776]

You did? Not what I saw. My standards for solid argumentation are a bit higher than what you provided. Well, okay... a lot higher.

Setting that aside for a moment, don't you see the jump between the claim "the Bible had no effect on the most notable moral advance" to "Christianity had no effect on human morality?" What question are you actually intending to address here? The Bible is a small fragment of Christianity, and what you call the "most notable moral advance" is a small fragment of human morality. They don't really transcribe one-to-one, yeah?

I think my argument is just fine for this forum. However, if you can give me one example of a moral advance that you can, with a straight face, label as a Christian-led movement, I'll back off.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is ironic to come from a modern sentiment, a privileged hindsight, in which such a great triumph has been made over slavery partly by means of Christianity and to patronize people who were part of the uphill struggle against slavery, as if we would not have had the same internal struggle and then to imagine all of slavery is invented in the Bible and by Christianity! Such insight lacks any historical context and so is not.

The Bible also is not the issue. It has indeed been a tool of the abolitionist, but the OP is somehow blissfully unaware of that History. The OP has claimed that the churches have been mislead by the Bible, but the Bible is a collection of books and letters that makes no guarantees and is unaware of itself as a whole. Nowhere in the Bible is there a statement that declares what the Bible is for, but the OP has implied there is as if it were a single book, which means the OP is generally uninformed about Christianity and its history and cannot make informed comments about it.

The conclusion of the OP is to flush Christianity, because slavery co-existed with Christians. Many Christians were slaves. Many were born in slavery, but in their way they fought against it. They fought it through Christ, perhaps not knowing that they were fighting it but many did know. Slavery is a recalcitrant and inventive foe, and so the struggle has been epic. Even as the Spanish conquistadors subjugated the South American continent and brought priests with them to impose religion, and as the burgeoning slave trade with Africa was just beginning the foundations of modern freedom were being completed in Christian Europe which would bring about the end of that same oppression. A flame of freedom would eventually sweep through the world and is now burning in most places. Today even where there is slavery people have at least heard of a different way of life. They now know that life doesn't have to include slavery. That's because of Christianity not in spite of it.

 

[joe1776]

"Christianity Has Had No Effect Whatsoever On Human Morality"

Tell that to the thief that robs no more. Tell that to the slave trader who stopped trading slaves and wrote "Amazing Grace". To Saul, the murderer, who stopped killing--let him know that Christianity had no effect on morality. Repeat that to the cannibals who stopped eating people after receiving Jesus Christ. Tell that to me who was going to commit adultery some 30 years ago but instead I am happily married for 43 years...

You were saying?

If their conscience wasn't already bothering them, people would not change for the better. But ask them why they changed, and some will credit their religion rather than their conscience.

 

[Kenny]

Tell it to the Conquistadors who committed genocide in the name of converting the native Americans to Christianity. Tell it to the Christian mob that burned the Library of Alexandria. Tell it to the countless Christian slavers who used the Bible to defend their practice. Tell it to the parents who let their children die because they think prayer is a substitute for medicine. Tell it to the casualties of every war where Christians on both sides claimed that God was with them.

Ahhhh... the biggest question is "Was it in the name of Christianity when in reality it was in the name of money, greed and self?" Because I can go into a garage and say "I'm a car" but it doesn't make me one.

 

[Kenny]

If their conscience wasn't already bothering them, people would not change for the better. But ask them why they changed, and some will credit their religion rather than their conscience.

It was definitely a "born-again" experience that created an effect on my conscience. As was my two friends who instantly was delivered from alcohol addiction and the other from multi-drug abuser.

The conscience changed after ther encounter.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ahhhh... the biggest question is "Was it in the name of Christianity when in reality it was in the name of money, greed and self?" Because I can go into a garage and say "I'm a car" but it doesn't make me one.

Of course, this question goes both ways.

BTW: how do you think it helps "money, greed and self" to lay down your life in a war or watch your child die of a preventable disease?

 

[Kenny]

Of course, this question goes both ways.

BTW: how do you think it helps "money, greed and self" to lay down your life in a war or watch your child die of a preventable disease?

You lost me on this one....

 

[joe1776]

It is ironic to come from a modern sentiment, a privileged hindsight, in which such a great triumph has been made over slavery partly by means of Christianity and to patronize people who were part of the uphill struggle against slavery, as if we would not have had the same internal struggle and then to imagine all of slavery is invented in the Bible and by Christianity! Such insight lacks any historical context and so is not.

The Bible also is not the issue. It has indeed been a tool of the abolitionist, but the OP is somehow blissfully unaware of that History. The OP has claimed that the churches have been mislead by the Bible, but the Bible is a collection of books and letters that makes no guarantees and is unaware of itself as a whole. Nowhere in the Bible is there a statement that declares what the Bible is for, but the OP has implied there is as if it were a single book, which means the OP is generally uninformed about Christianity and its history and cannot make informed comments about it.

The conclusion of the OP is to flush Christianity, because slavery co-existed with Christians. Many Christians were slaves. Many were born in slavery, but in their way they fought against it. They fought it through Christ, perhaps not knowing that they were fighting it but many did know. Slavery is a recalcitrant and inventive foe, and so the struggle has been epic. Even as the Spanish conquistadors subjugated the South American continent and brought priests with them to impose religion, and as the burgeoning slave trade with Africa was just beginning the foundations of modern freedom were being completed in Christian Europe which would bring about the end of that same oppression. A flame of freedom would eventually sweep through the world and is now burning in most places. Today even where there is slavery people have at least heard of a different way of life. They now know that life doesn't have to include slavery. That's because of Christianity not in spite of it.

...then to imagine all of slavery is invented in the Bible and by Christianity!

That's a strawman argument. I said that slavery pre-existed the Bible in the cultures of its writers.

...Nowhere in the Bible is there a statement that declares what the Bible is for.

If the Bible gives moral instruction, is it not fair to assume that one of its purposes is to give moral instruction?

Today even where there is slavery people have at least heard of a different way of life. They now know that life doesn't have to include slavery. That's because of Christianity not in spite of it.

You're trying to give Christianity credit for the achievement of conscience, the moral instincts that all of us have.

 

[joe1776]

While Christianity has its faults it definitely had a huge effect on morality. You need to understand that Christianity has been around around 2000 years and what effect it had on the Romans, Gauls, Mayans, African Tribes, North and South Americans when it reached them. It gave a value to all humans even slaves. There were morals for how to treat all people. Where the morals up to today's standards no but they were advanced for the standards of the age. Can you say the Christian morality has fallen behind the times yes but saying it had no effect on human advancement of morality is ridiculous.

We humans have been making moral progress probably since the origin of our species. It seems you want Christianity to have the credit for the progress in the places they had a presence. I can't refute your claim but you can't possibly support that with evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Tell it to the Conquistadors who committed genocide in the name of converting the native Americans to Christianity. Tell it to the Christian mob that burned the Library of Alexandria. Tell it to the countless Christian slavers who used the Bible to defend their practice. Tell it to the parents who let their children die because they think prayer is a substitute for medicine. Tell it to the casualties of every war where Christians on both sides claimed that God was with them.

Fine, let's amend the title of the thread to "Christianity has no positive effect whatsoever on human morality.

 

[bobhikes]

We humans have been making moral progress probably since the origin of our species. It seems you want Christianity to have the credit for the progress in the places they had a presence. I can't refute your claim but you can't possibly support that with evidence.

How do we make moral progress? What did we use to advance the morals? Throughout history where did our moral compass come from? Governments? Companies? Individuals? Not just Christianity but all religions have been used to advance human morals. Christianity just happens to be a current large world wide religion.

 

[joe1776]

It was definitely a "born-again" experience that created an effect on my conscience. As was my two friends who instantly was delivered from alcohol addiction and the other from multi-drug abuser.

The conscience changed after ther encounter.

The way I see it: Our moral instincts derive immediately from the unconscious. Those instincts don't change. But that person we call "I" can stop ignoring the protests of conscience and change the behavior. Was there ever a time when you thought your misbehavior was okay?

 

[joe1776]

How do we make moral progress? What did we use to advance the morals? Throughout history where did our moral compass come from? Governments? Companies? Individuals? Not just Christianity but all religions have been used to advance human morals. Christianity just happens to be a current large world wide religion.

I credit the moral instincts we call conscience.. From the New York Times: "According to Yale psychologist Paul Bloom, humans are born with a hard-wired morality. A deep sense of good and evil is bred in the bone. His research shows that babies and toddlers can judge the goodness and badness of others' actions; they want to reward the good and punish the bad; they act to help those in distress; they feel guilt, shame, pride, and righteous anger."

 

[Kenny]

Was there ever a time when you thought your misbehavior was okay?

yes

 

[bobhikes]

I credit the moral instincts we call conscience.. From the New York Times: "According to Yale psychologist Paul Bloom, humans are born with a hard-wired morality. A deep sense of good and evil is bred in the bone. His research shows that babies and toddlers can judge the goodness and badness of others' actions; they want to reward the good and punish the bad; they act to help those in distress; they feel guilt, shame, pride, and righteous anger."

Individuals do not see Good and Evil the same they do not feel guilt, shame, pride and anger the same as well. It is why we have laws and religions. These moral humans both are Prolife and Prochoice, For open marriages and for marriage only between a man and a woman, For the death penalty and against the death penalty, for the rights of all animals and for rights for certain animals and no rights for any animals etc, ect. These are large groups of humans world wide on each side there is no moral standard except for laws and religion.

 

[joe1776]

yes

I can't make sense of that. When men examine their consciences on the issue of equal rights for women, they usually change their attitude toward women. But, in that case, they changed an attitude that they never really thought about before. It's not conscience that changes but the rejection of a traditional-cultural biased attitude.

Conscience is the mechanism for change. It can't be that and subject to change itself.

 

[LuisDantas]

As the OP itself shows, Christianity has had an effect on morality. It slowed its natural development by encouraging a passive obedience to rules and expectations.

 

[osgart]

That's the beauty of human stories such as Christianity, some people can take the useful ideas and make them into something worthwhile, while ditching what ain't real or worthy.

I think the concepts of mercy and repentance comes from Christianity mostly. And people incorporate their own ideas of what that means or how far they'll go with it.

I could be wrong.

 

[joe1776]

Individuals do not see Good and Evil the same they do not feel guilt, shame, pride and anger the same as well. It is why we have laws and religions. These moral humans both are Prolife and Prochoice, For open marriages and for marriage only between a man and a woman, For the death penalty and against the death penalty, for the rights of all animals and for rights for certain animals and no rights for any animals etc, ect. These are large groups of humans world wide on each side there is no moral standard except for laws and religion.

I'm convinced that if we humans are given the same set of facts in a specific moral situation, and we are free of biases, we will make the same moral judgment. However, the cultural and traditional biases are many, so it's the "free of bias" part that makes my theory hard to prove.

For example, we can create a bias by making up moral laws and rules: "I think abortion is murder" is a moral rule that creates a bias. When we hear the facts in a clear case of murder, we immediately feel moral outrage. That is followed by a desire to see the killer punished. When that desire to punish the killer is missing, as it is in the pro-life argument, we know that the reasoning mind created a bias that misled judgment.

If Christians interpret "You should not kill" as an absolute rule, they create a bias which will throw judgment off course in a clear case of a killing in self-defense. Again, the impulse to see the killer punished will be missing.