Christianity is not defined solely by the Bible

[AmbiguousGuy]

I'm convinced, by all the scholarship I've read and studied, that the movement informed the writing. Oral cultures work that way.

That's how I see it, too. It's why I visualize guys sitting around penning gospels as a sort of competition. Everyone wanted to write up the best story.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The vast majority of parallels are not parallels for the simple reason that they are made up. My favorite by far is the idea that god-men are born on December 25th. To anyone a little informed, the claim is ridiculous, yet it still finds a place in so many of the lists of parallels.

Yeah, that one jumped out at me, too, in the video. I think most everyone knows that December 25th was given to Jesus as a birthday long after the events in the Bible, so I don't know why it would be relevant to godmen/Jesus parallels.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I didn't watch at the video, but [....] As you say though, that information just is garbage.

Why not watch the video and refute the garbage for us. Most of the material in the video looked to me like standard stuff -- accepted material regarding those old godmen.

If it's false information, though, I'd like to be educated about it. Why not show us how it is false?

I make the same request of you, outhouse. Rather than claiming the info is junk, why not show us how and why it is junk?

I'm not talking about the little stuff. You can ignore that. I just want to know if the video-maker was mistaken in his major claims about the old godmen.

 

[Kathryn]

.

If you've already searced for it and haven't found it, that's good enough for me. It was a throwaway point, after all. When asked about godmen parallels, I googled it, went to a site, tossed a couple of the bullet points into a forum message, and posted it. Years ago, I studied the issue pretty closely, although I never went and read original sources. I came away from that convinced that very real parallels exist between Jesus and earlier godmen.

I've researched this topic quite a bit. Some parallels exist. But there are also tons of spurious and/or poorly researched articles which grossly exxagerate many of the parallels.

If you are arguing that no such parallels exist, though, I will go and do a more thorough job of researching it out, although I still have no interest in going to original sources. It just isn't important enough for me to do that.

I'm not arguing that no such parallels exist, though some are quite a stretch when it comes to credibility - which becomes pretty obvious when one studies ancient texts. Over time, especially over the past 150 years or so, many of these parallels have become exxagerated.

I do wonder though, why you would rely on a quick Google of God knows what rather than serious scholarship of ancient texts.

Do you deny that earlier godmen were resurrected from the dead?

No. But that wasn't the point I was challenging, so let's not sidestep. The point that I was challenging was regarding your assertion that three shepherds visiting the godman is a theme among godman myths. This assertion seems to be completely unsubstantiated.

Yes, I did. But you seem to be assuming only the canonical gospels. That's what you asked me about. But I'm including the non-canonicals.

There is no mention that I can find of any sort of myth of three shepherds in canonical or non canonical texts, regarding either Jesus or any other godmen.

That's the point I was challenging. If you've got some proof of that, let's see it. If not, we can move on.

 

[outhouse]

I don't know what you mean. You think the video was made by atheists? Why do you believe that?

atheist suck up zitgiest without question. Ive been there and done that.

theist dont buy one second.



doesnt matter who made the video ,,,,, im stateing what happens afterwards.


believe mne if there was merit there id give it. Its almost like creationist garbage. I truth here a lie there topromote HIS concept.

there is nothing backing his big picture, but his eividence. Most of his evidence is not accurate and some of his source material is 150 300 years old.






really ,there is not a scholar or a historian that follows zitgiest because they know its junk.


if you want to read something thats closer to reality but on the edge read price

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I do wonder though, why you would rely on a quick Google of God knows what rather than serious scholarship of ancient texts.

Because -- as I've said -- it seems an inconsequential point. I'm not really sure why you seem to feel otherwise. To me, it seems that you're focusing on a particular twig on a particular sapling, which I misidentified when speaking of the forest. I've already conceded that I'll take your word for it without even going to check for myself, so....

No. But that wasn't the point I was challenging, so let's not sidestep. The point that I was challenging was regarding your assertion that three shepherds visiting the godman is a theme among godman myths. This assertion seems to be completely unsubstantiated.

I've sidestepped it by conceding that you are right and I'm wrong?

What can I say. Sojourner actually caught me making a typo awhile back. Your focus on this particular point seems the same to me. As if it's very, very important to you that everyone is aware that I actually made a mistake... thereby distracting us from the actual debate.

That's the point I was challenging. If you've got some proof of that, let's see it. If not, we can move on.

Yikes. I concede the point, taking your word for it, and you still want me to provide proof of the point?

What's up, Kathryn? What's really bothering you?

Jesus-as-fictional-character, yes?

Why don't we talk about that?

 

[outhouse]

I make the same request of you, outhouse.

heres the problem you have to go through from the start and catch every word and start from there.


falling blood gave you/us a link that shows how its debunked by him.

richard carrier also laughs at it.

lets call atheist a group for a second. If your in the know of who is in your group so to speak there are some brilliant minds. We have some very very educated people that back our lack of belief. zitgiest gets in the way and promotes a whole set of beliefs. afterall now your believing someone like a theist because you dont know the information and are hearing it for the first time.

I choose not to believe because I want to know

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

OK, outhouse. I was hoping you'd actually engage the material, pointing out the errors, but as you please.

Forgive me, though, if my opinion has not changed. I'll need something a little more concrete than your personal assertion that it's all garbage.

 

[outhouse]

I just want to know if the video-maker was mistaken in his major claims about the old godmen.

some of that information is wrong.

he plays connect the dots and the dots leed right to his view. In real life the trail is not clear at all.

ancient cultures were all tied to cosmology, but acting like they all had a uniform belief that followed cosmology is dead wrong, they didnt. They all had their own unique view and take.

most understood the solstice, but to tie everything in so neat the way zitg has does not represent reality

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I truth here a lie there topromote HIS concept.

By the way, outhouse, I have to say that I'm having some difficulty understanding some parts of your messages. It's hard for me to respond when I'm unsure what you're saying.

 

[outhouse]

OK, outhouse. I was hoping you'd actually engage the material, pointing out the errors,

I cant bud, there is really to much there to point out.

again, i had zitg hook in my mouth lol for years. Once i started learning real history the hook slid out easily and now I distance myself from it.

not just ancient hebrews i study but also I know allot about the incas.

honestly I now look at zitg as a cartoon

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

falling blood gave you/us a link that shows how its debunked by him.

Yes, and I could give fallingblood a link showing how he's dead wrong. What's the point of that? This is a debate forum. Personally, I'd like to debate.

richard carrier also laughs at it.

And others laugh at richard carrier. And so it goes.

lets call atheist a group for a second. If your in the know of who is in your group so to speak there are some brilliant minds. We have some very very educated people that back our lack of belief. zitgiest gets in the way and promotes a whole set of beliefs. afterall now your believing someone like a theist because you dont know the information and are hearing it for the first time.

Well, I agree that most people seem to follow the lead of their own group. I think that interferes with clear thought. It's why I don't even believe in atheists or Christians. It's bound to confuse one's thought to see things in that way.

I choose not to believe because I want to know.

Choose not to believe what, exactly?

 

[outhouse]

By the way, outhouse, I have to say that I'm having some difficulty understanding some parts of your messages. It's hard for me to respond when I'm unsure what you're saying.

creationist often will lead you into a belief.

they put a few truths here and there to get you on their trail that heads to their belief.

now they add truths to the content but thats not all they add.

 

[outhouse]

And others laugh at richard carrier.

if their atheist ,,, ill have nothing to do with them.

id like to add its mostly theist against him

Carrier is a historian and a advocate that god is a man made contruction

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I cant bud, there is really to much there to point out.

Well, OK. Forgive me if I don't take your word for that. I am not the sort to swallow the other guy's zeitgeist. If you want to convince me of anything, I'll need some actual argumentation on the specifics.

honestly I now look at zitg as a cartoon.

I really have no good idea what you're talking about. You're saying that you were once slave to cultural assumptions? If so, that's the very thing I'm arguing here... that we should not be such a slave. Remember how I started? I noted that one reason biblical scholars can't see Jesus as a fictional character is that they are captive to cultural respect for Christianity and the Bible. To even consider Jesus-as-fictional, one has a huge cultural hill to climb.

 

[outhouse]

Well, I agree that most people seem to follow the lead of their own group. I think that interferes with clear thought. It's why I don't even believe in atheists or Christians. It's bound to confuse one's thought to see things in that way.

I dont like labels

so your agnostic?

 

[outhouse]

Well, OK. Forgive me if I don't take your word for that.

and when I started I thought ,, like you

To even consider Jesus-as-fictional, one has a huge cultural hill to climb.

it took allot of my own research to realize there very well may have been a historical jesus, there is evidence pointing to this. Enough so it has a wide following of open minded people.

most can say there was a historical jesus that was baptised and was a hellenistic traveling teacher who was put to the cross for ticking off the pharisees and romans.

after that,,,,,,,, little can be said with certainty.

theres a little more but that is the jest of it

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

if their atheist ,,, ill have nothing to do with them.

As I say, I think it's a little unhealthy to think of people as 'atheists' or 'Christians.'

I am both, and neither. I am one in one moment and the other in the next. Tomorrow morning I'm a Jew. At noon, I'm a deist. I eat dinner as an athiest or Catholic.

When we label a human being with a single word, we can come to actually believe in those labels. That's gonna lead to some serious confusion, I think, and maybe even a bit of race rioting or religious war.

(Yeah, I am the enemy of tribalism.)

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I dont like labels so your agnostic?

I hope you can see the irony in that.

You don't like labels, but you want to know what my label is?

 

[outhouse]

I hope you can see the irony in that.

You don't like labels, but you want to know what my label is?

I knew where I was going just forgot the smiley face when I hit submit