• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christianity is not the only way to God

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
As you know, I believe that Baha'u'llah was the latest Messenger of Allah and there will be no more Messengers until at least the year 2852 AD.
As you know, Jesus came some 500 years after Buddha and Mohammad came 600 years after Jesus. So the contention of the uneducated 19th Century Iranian Preacher is absolutely wrong and absurd. That should make it clear to every one that he was speaking a lie.
We all have our own beliefs, and of course these are beliefs so they can never be verified... :)
Why should we believe on things which are not verified? And if we do, why should not we believe on fictional characters like Flying Spaghetti Monster, Cthulhu or Spock?
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Through reading the Bible alone it would be hard to come up with the idea that Jesus is not coming back when He says He is coming back and that the Son of Man will come and that He is the Son of Man. That someone else may be the Son of Man comes from other sources, not the Bible.
Jesus does not say He is coming back anywhere in the New Testament.
Christians believe that everything in the Bible is about Jesus, but it’s not.

Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus as is the title Son of God.
There is only one Son of God but there can be more than one Son of man, since the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented.

"Son of man", "son of Adam", or "like a man", are phrases used in the Hebrew Bible, various apocalyptic works of the intertestamental period, and in the Greek New Testament. In the indefinite form ("son of Adam", "son of man", "like a man") used in the Hebrew Bible it is a form of address, or it contrasts human beings against God and the angels, or contrasts foreign nations (like Persia and Babylon), which are often represented as animals in apocalyptic writings (bear, goat, or ram), with Israel which is represented as human (a "son of man"), or it signifies an eschatological human figure.

In its indefinite form it is used in the Greek Old Testament, Biblical apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. The Greek New Testament uses the earlier indefinite form while introducing a novel definite form, "the son of man."

Son of man - Wikipedia
You quote these verses:
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

These verses however have to be seen in the light of other verses and not taken out of context.
In context, John 14:19 makes it even more clear that it is not Jesus who is coming back to Earth. Jesus was a comforter, and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter and the Spirit of truth that the word did not know yet because they had not seen Him yet.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

In context, it is even clearer what John 17:11means because Jesus first says He has finished the work that God gave Him to do and then He says He is no longer in the world:

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.


7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

That Jesus meant that He was going from the earth BUT that He would return is seen in other places, including this verse:
Matthew 23:39 reads: ‘For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”‘ (ESV).
There are many verses wherein Christians assume that Jesus is referring to Himself, when actually He is referring to Baha’u’llah.

That is an interesting verse, as it was Baha’u’llah who came in the name of the Lord. Jesus came in the station of the Son and Baha’u’llah came in the station of the Father. That is why we have the following verses wherein Jesus clearly differentiates Himself from the Son of man:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

I used to think the Bible was not accurate but more and more I am finding that is not the case at all. How it came to be so accurate difficult to understand given how it was written and compiled so I can only conclude that it must have been inspired by God.
 
Last edited:

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
That is an interesting verse, as it was Baha’u’llah who came in the name of the Lord.
No, it was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmdiyyas who is the last to come in the name of Lord.*
Claims being a 'man of God' in Abrahamic religions are dime a dozen since there is no requirement of providing any proof.

* Unless you believe in these people who also claimed to have come in the name of the Lord.
List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia
List of Mahdi claimants - Wikipedia
List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia
List of Jewish messiah claimants - Wikipedia
Also read:
Religious delusion - Wikipedia
Messiah complex - Wikipedia
Jerusalem syndrome - Wikipedia
God complex - Wikipedia
Cult of personality - Wikipedia
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I do know that when there is contradiction between the Bible and Baha'u'llah's writings I side with the Bible and you with your prophet's writings
There is no contest because they are both true. However, all of what I have learned about the return of Christ has come from the Bible, not from the Writings of Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah barely ever mentions being the return of Christ, although He did claim to be the Comforter and the Spirit of truth when He was addressing the kings and rulers and the Christian clergy of His time, because they had to know what He was claiming.
Jesus always speaks of the Son of Man in the third person and I have already posted where the New Testament tells us that it is Jesus who is coming to judge the earth. (Acts 17:31, John 5:22)
It is very interesting to note that the title Son of Man was connected with the earthly life of Jesus. Evn though Jesus spoke in the third person, we know that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Son of Man because we know that Jesus did these things.

But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins - he said to the paralytic (Mark 2:10)

So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)

And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head (Matthew 8:20)

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As you know, Jesus came some 500 years after Buddha and Mohammad came 600 years after Jesus. So the contention of the uneducated 19th Century Iranian Preacher is absolutely wrong and absurd. That should make it clear to every one that he was speaking a lie.
I never said that there were no true Messengers of God before Baha'u'llah, there were many. I said I believe that Baha'u'llah was the latest Messenger of God and there will be no more Messengers until at least the year 2852 AD.
Why should we believe on things which are not verified? And if we do, why should not we believe on fictional characters like Flying Spaghetti Monster, Cthulhu or Spock?
I never said you should believe them.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, it was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmdiyyas who is the last to come in the name of Lord.*
Claims being a 'man of God' in Abrahamic religions are dime a dozen since there is no requirement of providing any proof.
Believe that if you wish but I will never believe it. He has absolutely nothing to back up his claims whereas Baha'u'llah had a ton of evidence to back up His claims. Claims are a dime a dozen but evidence isn't.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Tons of evidence! You never mentioned even one during our discussions which could be verified.
I do not believe in any claim of representation of God or Allah which is an imaginary entity like the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Cthulhu. They are made only to garner followers and personal benefits, or in due to psychological conditions. I am far from that crap and happily a strong atheist.
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Tons of evidence! You never mentioned even one during our discussions which could be verified.
All that can be verified is the early life and character of Baha'u'llah, His earthly mission for God, His Writings, the predictions that He made that came true, and prophecies that were fulfilled as a result of His Coming. It can never be verified that He received messages from God. It can never be verified that anyone received messages from God. That is why it is called a belief and not a fact.
I do not believe in any claim of representation of God or Allah which is an imaginary entity like the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Cthulhu. They are made only to garner followers and personal benefits, or in due to psychological conditions. I am far from that crap and happily a strong atheist.
I am glad you are happy as an atheist. I often wish I could be an atheist because being a Baha'i is anything but easy. :(
Life was so much easier in many ways before I decided to try to be a Baha'i again and to try to work it out with God, after many decades of not wanting anything to do with God or religion.
So why did I come back? Because I knew the religion was true and that I would be better off in the long run.
 

John1.12

Free gift
You didn't read my post where I quoted Romans 2: 14,15, as well as referencing the Roman Centurion whom Jesus said that Pagan, Non-Jew, had more faith that anyone in all Israel? These who you say are "unsaved"?

"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"​

So, yes, if they are living fulfilling God's will, that makes them children of God. But you say they are damned instead, "unsaved" as you call these people the Apostle Paul is referring to? I wonder if Paul would agree with that?
No one is saved by keeping the law . Read Chapter 3 of Romans.
 

John1.12

Free gift
My religion did not teach me any of this. I learned all this on my own by reading the Bible.
So I see you cannot find one single verse where Jesus says that He is going to return to Earth.
You cannot find what is not there.
Well i imagine all the verses I give you will say this is not Jesus this is a man your religion says is the ' one ' ?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well i imagine all the verses I give you will say this is not Jesus this is a man your religion says is the ' one ' ?
Maybe or maybe not, it depends upon what the verses say.
But if it is not about Jesus I can explain why it is not about Jesus, and if it is about Baha'u'llah I can explain why it is about Baha'u'llah.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
All that can be verified is the early life and character of Baha'u'llah, His earthly mission for God, His Writings, the predictions that He made that came true, and prophecies that were fulfilled as a result of His Coming. .. It can never be verified that anyone received messages from God. That is why it is called a belief and not a fact.
What do I know of character of the Iranian preacher? I know that he appropriated the leadership of Babis which Bab, Alí Muḥammad Shírází, gave to Mirza Yahya; and ex-communicated all those who differed with him including nearly all his extended family. Predictions and prophecies and their fulfillment are always bogus. That is superstitious stuff. You cannot even prove the existence of God, what to talk of messages from this imagined entity. I do not like to have beliefs for which there is no evidence.
 
Last edited:

John1.12

Free gift
Maybe or maybe not, it depends upon what the verses say.
But if it is not about Jesus I can explain why it is not about Jesus, and if it is about Baha'u'llah I can explain why it is about Baha'u'llah.
If you read the bible it says in Thessalonians that there will be a ' man ' who will appear before the great tribulation , who is going to look like he's bringing peace to the world . This is the anti christ . Most religions are expecting a figure to turn up . For Islam it is Jesus ,but not the biblical Jesus but as they would say ' a prophet ' he's going to declare to the world, breaking a cross and saying all the Christians were wrong. When I was into new age ' spirituality /hinduism / Buddhism/ pic n mix. There's a figure , a transcended one who has overcome. There's a ' man ' a " one ' who will return , the one there waiting for who is going to reveal ( fill in the blank ) bring peace , unity, the next evolutionary leap ect . The bible however names him as the 'anti Christ '. He's going to unite all religions. They will all see him as the ' one ' ,
2 thes
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What do I know of character of the Iranian preacher? I know that he appropriated the leadership of Babis which Bab, Alí Muḥammad Shírází, gave to Mirza Yahya; and ex-communicated all those who differed with him including nearly all his extended family. Predictions and prophecies and their fulfillment are always bogus. That is superstitious stuff. You cannot even prove the existence of God, what to talk of messages from this imagined entity. I do not like to have beliefs for which there is no evidence.
I do not believe that half-truths you say about Baha'u'llah because I know what really happened. I stopped feeling a need to defend everything people say by correcting it. Predictions and prophecies were either fulfilled or not. Nobody can prove the existence is God so if you need proof you should decline belief.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Jesus does not say He is coming back anywhere in the New Testament.
Christians believe that everything in the Bible is about Jesus, but it’s not.

Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus as is the title Son of God.
There is only one Son of God but there can be more than one Son of man, since the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented.

"Son of man", "son of Adam", or "like a man", are phrases used in the Hebrew Bible, various apocalyptic works of the intertestamental period, and in the Greek New Testament. In the indefinite form ("son of Adam", "son of man", "like a man") used in the Hebrew Bible it is a form of address, or it contrasts human beings against God and the angels, or contrasts foreign nations (like Persia and Babylon), which are often represented as animals in apocalyptic writings (bear, goat, or ram), with Israel which is represented as human (a "son of man"), or it signifies an eschatological human figure.

In its indefinite form it is used in the Greek Old Testament, Biblical apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. The Greek New Testament uses the earlier indefinite form while introducing a novel definite form, "the son of man."

It's good to see you are learning something about the Bible. But it is no use to learn every technical detail about the Bible if it does not lead you to a knowledge of the truth.
You have scriptures which show that Jesus is coming back in person and even ones that Jesus said and you still deny it.


There are many verses wherein Christians assume that Jesus is referring to Himself, when actually He is referring to Baha’u’llah.

That is an interesting verse, as it was Baha’u’llah who came in the name of the Lord. Jesus came in the station of the Son and Baha’u’llah came in the station of the Father. That is why we have the following verses wherein Jesus clearly differentiates Himself from the Son of man:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

I used to think the Bible was not accurate but more and more I am finding that is not the case at all. How it came to be so accurate difficult to understand given how it was written and compiled so I can only conclude that it must have been inspired by God.

Matt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
It is an interesting verse for you because it shows that the one who comes in the name of the Lord and will be seen by the Jews of Jesus day will be Jesus.
It should also be interesting for you because the Jews of Jesus day did not see Baha'u'llah.

The ""glory of the Father"" in Mark 8:38 and Luke 9:26 does not refer to Baha'u'lla. If it did then it means that Baha'u'llah is not only the glory of God but is also the "glory of the holy angels".
Yes the Bible is so accurate it tells us in a few words about the errors of false Christ.
But of course you end up ignoring that bit of the verses (about the holy angels) just as you ignore that no ancient Jews saw Baha'u'llah and that the Comforter and Spirit of Truth in John 14, 15, 16 refer to the Holy Spirit, who is the other Comforter who actually did come to the disciples Jesus was speaking to and lived in them as the scripture says and which Baha'u'llah did not.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
There is no contest because they are both true. However, all of what I have learned about the return of Christ has come from the Bible, not from the Writings of Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah barely ever mentions being the return of Christ, although He did claim to be the Comforter and the Spirit of truth when He was addressing the kings and rulers and the Christian clergy of His time, because they had to know what He was claiming.

It is very interesting to note that the title Son of Man was connected with the earthly life of Jesus. Evn though Jesus spoke in the third person, we know that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Son of Man because we know that Jesus did these things.

But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins - he said to the paralytic (Mark 2:10)

So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)

And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head (Matthew 8:20)

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10)

Yes that is right, the Son of Man that Jesus spoke of is Jesus.
If you want to draw a line between the son of man that Jesus spoke of in one place and the son of man he spoke of in another, that is up to you and is reading into the Bible what Baha'u'llah claims about himself while offering no evidence from God that he is whom he claims.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No one is saved by keeping the law . Read Chapter 3 of Romans.
Correct. That is saying the same thing I am saying as well by saying no one is saved by religion. Therefore, children of God may be found in all religions, or in no religion at all. It's not necessary to adhere to religious rites, rituals, and observances prescribed by a religion, in order to be saved.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Correct. That is saying the same thing I am saying as well by saying no one is saved by religion. Therefore, children of God may be found in all religions, or in no religion at all. It's not necessary to adhere to religious rites, rituals, and observances prescribed by a religion, in order to be saved.
The bible says that the only way to be a child of God is through Jesus making you become one , literally. The bible doesn't say there is another way . So either The bible/ Jesus is wrong or all other religions are wrong . They all can't be right .
 

John1.12

Free gift
Correct. That is saying the same thing I am saying as well by saying no one is saved by religion. Therefore, children of God may be found in all religions, or in no religion at all. It's not necessary to adhere to religious rites, rituals, and observances prescribed by a religion, in order to be saved.
Why do you say it has to be in all religions, or none at all ? That doesn't logically follow?
 
Top