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"Christianity is the religion of the end of religion"

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
"Peace on earth, good will toward men, glory to God in the highest." ............... How then is an atheist an evil thing if it can produce the fruits of the spirit? Jesus is quoted to say "Whoever is not against us is for us."

Besides what Jesus said at Luke 9:50 please continue reading to Luke 11:23 because it says, ''he that is Not with me is against me".
- See also Matthew 12:30.
At Luke 9:49-50 Jesus was addressing a certain person. So, at that point in Jesus' ministry those doing such works who were Not against him but were for him, whereas Luke 11:23 and Matthew 12:30 applies to all of us.

If you examine the Scriptures at Luke 2:14 it is peace on earth, toward men of goodwill.
KJV prints 'good will toward men' as if all men will all be included.
So, there is a BIG difference in saying peace toward men of goodwill, or as the Greek has ' men of well thinking '.
So, that means people of whom God approves. Approves as the people found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

Sure, an atheist can produce or cultivate the fruit of God's spirit as found at Galatians 5:22-23, but how many atheists
are doing the spiritual work of telling about God's kingdom of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 as Jesus instructed to do.
I have Not seen or talked to even one atheist who is telling others about the good news of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
First, let's clarify one minor point. As the Pew data shows, atheism isn't gaining in the USA as much as one would expect from the decline of traditional religion. "Spiritual but non-religious" is a category the Pew people created to cover the fastest growing group.
I think the reasons that Christianity flourished over the ages are now working against it. Those reasons made a strong appeal to naive minds and, with each passing generation, there are fewer naive minds.
The creation of Heaven and Hell was a master stroke. Reward is a powerful motivator. Punishment is equally good. The two together are extremely powerful. Heaven (reward) and Hell (punishment) coerced naive minds to desire faith.
Today, though, the notion of Hell for non-believers is obviously unjust. It's hard to believe in a god who would be so unjust. When Christians try to credit the god they worship with unconditional love, their arguments are head scratchers.

I think it was Not the teachings of 1st-century Christianity, but the teachings of Christendom (apostate Christianity)
that is now working against such 'so-called Christianity', or part of the MANY as found at Matthew 7:21-23.

Christianity did Not create hell fire, but KJV translating the word Gehenna as hell fire but the flames in hell.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit where things were destroyed forever and Not kept burning forever.
Biblical hell is where Jesus went the day he died according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
Since Jesus taught ' sleep in death ' at John 11:11-14 then Jesus believed he would be in a sleep-like state.
Jesus learned about the 'sleeping dead' from the old Hebrew Scriptures such as Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4.
And, King Solomon, known for having godly wisdom, wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:5 the dead know nothing.
So, the dead know nothing but sleep until Resurrection Day (Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth).
Thus, it is Christendom that has flourished, and Christendom's teachings are now working against her.
Whereas, 1st-century teachings of Christ are flourishing globally just as Jesus said at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Good post! Yes, that latter saying of Jesus (derived from the Gospels of Mark and Luke) is an important reminder to Christians that we must refrain from condemning or ostracising those who do not share our ideas, theology and worship, which would limit the reach of God's Kingdom to those who think as we do.

The Synoptic Jesus, certainly, placed more emphasis on conduct as the gold-standard marking out a true Christian i.e.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven"

and

"The Sheep and the Goats or "the Judgment of the Nations" is a pronouncement of Jesus recorded in chapter 25 of Matthew's Gospel in the New Testament...This parable seems on a natural reading to support the first view, justification by works. The 'sheep' are saved because of the good deeds they have done, independent of any framework of knowledge or belief, or hope of future benefit."

So, are you saying that I might be saved by my good works? if so, I'm pretty sure most people who call themselves Christian would not agree.

A couple of months ago I met a young woman who wanted to be a minister in a Protestant church. She started by saying that she didn't want to go to Hell. She could respect and show her love to non-believers like me because that is what Christ taught.

I didn't say it to her but my thought was that she had the right understanding of love but, if Hell exists, the god she worshiped did not.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Besides what Jesus said at Luke 9:50 please continue reading to Luke 11:23 because it says, ''he that is Not with me is against me".
...and further "and he who does not gather with me, scatters."
At Luke 9:49-50 Jesus was addressing a certain person. So, at that point in Jesus' ministry those doing such works who were Not against him but were for him, whereas Luke 11:23 and Matthew 12:30 applies to all of us.
I think that he's speaking to Jews in all of these passages, not to gentiles assuming that this is a historical account rather than a story. We can try to put ourselves into the shoes of those he is speaking to. We can think of it as a historical account or as a story intended to illustrate something about Israel in its time of crisis or both. Matthew1230 is addressed specifically to Jesus disciples which he calls his little flock. You and I are not there except by a timeless extension and a tentative grafting -- which I admit and do not disagree with you about if that is your view. Luke1123 is in the midst of a discussion about driving out a mute demon and a criticism of the Pharisees, so it is about their opposition to him. They do not gather with him, because they only accept perfect chosen disciples and are carefully selective. Jesus picks all kinds of disciples, like someone tossing seeds out onto all kinds of soil. The Pharisees work hard to find good disciples, but Jesus disagrees with this. Jesus is like a fisherman casts the net into the sea gathering all kinds of fish. The Pharisees are like someone casting a line using specific bait. Its a completely different approach from the Pharisees, but in all of these he is speaking to Jews. He's not speaking to lost people or aliens from the covenant of promise. He's talking about welcoming all kinds of people. The gospel is presented to the Jews as the good news that its time for each person to be taught directly by the LORD and that the time has come for the law to be in the heart no longer on paper -- thus he is not carefully selecting disciples. This, then, is the original Catholic faith, which the Pharisees may think of as a wide path to destruction while Jesus considers it to be the narrow path. It is presented differently (by Paul) to gentiles, and some of his letters are saved and treasured. Gentiles do not know anything about Pharisees to begin with, and it is of course very difficult for the early Reformationists to understand what Paul's letters and the gospels are about for that reason. Specifically the release of the Bible in English causes a great deal of confusion which is not good, even though it weakens the aristocratic grip of the clergy which is a good thing I think. So here we are today, still trying to sort through these piles of documents and trying to make sense of who the Pharisees are and whether we are Jews or what.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
So, are you saying that I might be saved by my good works? if so, I'm pretty sure most people who call themselves Christian would not agree.

A couple of months ago I met a young woman who wanted to be a minister in a Protestant church. She started by saying that she didn't want to go to Hell. She could respect and show her love to non-believers like me because that is what Christ taught.

I didn't say it to her but my thought was that she had the right understanding of love but, if Hell exists, the god she worshiped did not.


Yes, I believe that you can be 'saved' as an atheist - no doubt about that, our doctrinal teaching is clear. But not because you are being justified by your works apart from the grace of God (my earlier remark was purely about the historical Jesus with my 'secular' impartial hat on, since he did seem to believe in salvation through works irrespective of belief so far as we can tell, and not Pauline Christianity, which is authoritative for all mainstream Christians but has been misinterpreted by Protestants due to faulty translations), rather through cooperation with his grace - albeit implicit.


"...Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life..."

- Vatican II [Lumen Gentium 16]


"...The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation..."

- Pope St. John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (1990)

As a Catholic, I don't believe that anyone can 'save' themselves by their own efforts apart from the grace of God - but my church also does not believe that the grace of God is limited only to those who have explicit faith in Christ or formal membership in his Church. Cooperation with his grace is the key and all that is necessary for this is faithful adherence to the dictates of conscience. From the Catechism:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

We reject the concept of sola fide (faith alone), indeed that was one of the principal points of dispute that caused the Protestant Reformation. Faith without works is dead and the 'faith' required does not even need to involve an explicit recognition of God for those who are sincere in their (from the church's perspective) "error" and faithfully try to adhere to the dictates of their conscience.

Catholicism is a religion of conscience. For us, conscience = the voice of God. All human beings have consciences and so all human beings are capable of being saved by the grace of God. As explained by one scholar, Lyons (2009): “conscience is the whole internal conscious process by which first principles of moral right and wrong, learnt intuitively by synderesis [a functional intuitive capacity], are applied to some action now contemplated in order to produce a moral verdict on that action, known as conscientia." (p.479).


Catechism of the Catholic Church - Moral conscience


1779 It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:

Return to your conscience . . . Turn inward, brethren 51
Conscience includes the perception of the principles of morality (synderesis); their application in the given circumstances by practical discernment of reasons and goods; and finally judgment about concrete acts yet to be performed or already performed...A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.
The Catholic Church recognises that non-believers often hold perfectly valid and defensible reasons for finding the claims of the Christian Revelation unpersuasive, and are therefore not to be considered culpable of wilful disregard for the truth or any allegations of that sort.

The great Spanish priest and theologian Francisco de Vitoria, of the Salamanca School, pointed this out in 1532 A.D:


De Indis De Jure Belli/Part 2 - Wikisource, the free online library


"The pagans in question are not bound, directly the Christian faith is announced to them, to believe it, in such a way that they commit mortal sin by not believing it, merely because it has been declared and announced to them that Christianity is the true religion and that Christ is the Saviour and Redeemer of the world, without any other proof or persuasion.

For if before hearing anything of the Christian religion [the pagans] were excused, they are put under no fresh obligation by a simple declaration and announcement of [the gospel], for such announcement is no proof or incentive to belief… Nay…it would be rash and imprudent for any one to believe anything, especially in matters which concern salvation, unless he knows that this is asserted by a man worthy of credence…[therefore] matters of faith are seen and become evident by reason of their credibility. For a believer would not believe unless he saw the things were worthy of belief because of the evidence
” (On the Indians Lately Discovered Section 2 Chapter 10)​

(continued...)
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Or Cardinal De Lugo, responding to objections to baptism by implicit desire based on a faulty reading of Unam Sanctam:


“…It would follow that a Jew or other non-Christian could be saved; for he could have a supernatural faith in the one God, and be invincibly ignorant about Christ…The possibility of salvation for such a person is not ruled out…moreover, such a person should not be called a ‘non-Christian’, because, even through he has not been visibly joined to the church, still, interiorly he has the virtue of habitual and actual faith in common with the church, and in the sight of God he will be reckoned with the Christians…”

- Cardinal Juan de Lugo (1583-1660), De Libro hominis arbitrio et divina libri X

“…the members of the various Christian sects, of the Jewish and Mohammedan communions, and of the non-Christian philosophies, who achieved and achieve their salvation, do so simply by God’s grace aiding their good faith instinctively to concentrate itself upon, and to practise, those elements in the cultus and teaching of their respective sect, communion or philosophy, which are true and good and originally revealed by God…”


-Cardinal Juan De Lugo (a. d. 1583-1660), De Fide, Disputations



These theological arguments are very old.

Pope Paul VI recognized this in relation to atheists:


"...The Church can regard no one as excluded from its motherly embrace, no one as outside the scope of its motherly care. It has no enemies except those who wish to make themselves such. Its catholicity is no idle boast. It was not for nothing that it received its mission to foster love, unity and peace among men...Though We speak firmly and clearly in defence of religion, and of those human, spiritual values which it proclaims and cherishes, Our pastoral solicitude nevertheless prompts Us to probe into the mind of the modern atheist, in an effort to understand the reasons...

They are obviously many and complex, and we must come to a prudent decision about them, and answer them effectively. They sometimes spring from the demand for a more profound and purer presentation of religious truth, and an objection to forms of language and worship which somehow fall short of the ideal. These things we must remedy. We must do all we can to purify them and make them express more adequately the sacred reality of which they are the signs. We see these men serving a demanding and often a noble cause, fired with enthusiasm and idealism, dreaming of justice and progress and striving for a social order which they conceive of as the ultimate of perfection, and all but divine.

This, for them, is the Absolute and the Necessary...Again we see these men taking pains to work out scientific explanation of the universe by human reasoning, and they are often quite ingenuously enthusiastic about this.

It is an enquiry which is all the less reprehensible in that it follows rules of logic very similar to those which are taught in the best schools of philosophy...They are sometimes men of great breadth of mind, impatient with the mediocrity and self-seeking which infects so much of modern society. They are quick to make use of sentiments and expressions found in our Gospel, referring to the brotherhood of man, mutual aid, and human compassion...We do not therefore give up hope of the eventual possibility of a dialogue between these men and the Church

They are obviously many and complex, and we must come to a prudent decision about them, and answer them effectively. They sometimes spring from the demand for a more profound and purer presentation of religious truth, and an objection to forms of language and worship which somehow fall short of the ideal. These things we must remedy. We must do all we can to purify them and make them express more adequately the sacred reality of which they are the signs. We see these men serving a demanding and often a noble cause, fired with enthusiasm and idealism, dreaming of justice and progress and striving for a social order which they conceive of as the ultimate of perfection, and all but divine.

This, for them, is the Absolute and the Necessary...Again we see these men taking pains to work out scientific explanation of the universe by human reasoning, and they are often quite ingenuously enthusiastic about this.

It is an enquiry which is all the less reprehensible in that it follows rules of logic very similar to those which are taught in the best schools of philosophy...They are sometimes men of great breadth of mind, impatient with the mediocrity and self-seeking which infects so much of modern society. They are quick to make use of sentiments and expressions found in our Gospel, referring to the brotherhood of man, mutual aid, and human compassion...We do not therefore give up hope of the eventual possibility of a dialogue between these men and the Church
..."

- ECCLESIAM SUAM, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI , AUGUST 6, 1964

In other words, many atheists are sincere, intelligent and socially conscious people who just don't find the claims made on behalf of religion intellectually persuasive.

Or as the Second Vatican Council's pastoral constitution Gaudium et Spes (1965) put it:


Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern Word-Gaudium et Spes


"Atheism results not rarely from a violent protest against the evil in this world...For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion..."

The Church here recognizes that, at least to some extent, unbelief arises "through [our] fault, through [our] fault, through [our] most grievous fault", partly because we just aren't making persuasive, credible arguments in favour of religious belief.

And Catholicism is, and has always been, the largest Christian denomination. Nobody else in the Christian family matches us our 1.1 billion souls.

That said, from a purely secular reading of scripture it doesn't look like Jesus regarded anything other than works and purity of heart as necessary requirements for salvation. He doesn't seem to have particularly bothered about beliefs.

Jesus instructed his audience to stop thinking in terms of the "received wisdom" of their ancestors, as one scholar notes:


The Sermon on the Mount


Jesus was well aware that much of what he was going to say would be in fundamental contradiction to what the masses had been taught. He recognized that there would be a chasm, an incompatibility, between the prevailing orthodoxy (either popular, clerical, or both) that they had been raised in and that which he was advocating (Mt. 9:16, for example).

Indeed, he plainly told his audience that they already possessed the ability to make their own value judgements about his ministry, and that they shouldn't look for divine signs in the heavens to validate it:


Luke 12:57

“And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?"


That is a literal Greek translation of this verse:

GRK Δια τι δε και αφ' εαυτων δεν κρινετε το δικαιον

This is not an appeal to authority or sacred writ but to conscience, intuition and reason. One commentator, for instance, transliterates the meaning of this injunction as follows: "Why, even without signs, do you not judge rightly of me and of my doctrine by the natural light of reason and of conscience?" (J. R. Dummelow, op. cit., p. 755).
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Polytheists have been saying the same thing for a long time, that monotheism and atheism go hand in hand. Monotheism, especially of the Abrahamic transcendent sort, desacralizes the world and Nature. It also denies all other deities, truths and experiences other than its own (it doesn't have to but the normative forms of it do). So it's only a hop and a skip away to atheism.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Or Cardinal De Lugo, responding to objections to baptism by implicit desire based on a faulty reading of Unam Sanctam:


“…It would follow that a Jew or other non-Christian could be saved; for he could have a supernatural faith in the one God, and be invincibly ignorant about Christ…The possibility of salvation for such a person is not ruled out…moreover, such a person should not be called a ‘non-Christian’, because, even through he has not been visibly joined to the church, still, interiorly he has the virtue of habitual and actual faith in common with the church, and in the sight of God he will be reckoned with the Christians…”

- Cardinal Juan de Lugo (1583-1660), De Libro hominis arbitrio et divina libri X

“…the members of the various Christian sects, of the Jewish and Mohammedan communions, and of the non-Christian philosophies, who achieved and achieve their salvation, do so simply by God’s grace aiding their good faith instinctively to concentrate itself upon, and to practise, those elements in the cultus and teaching of their respective sect, communion or philosophy, which are true and good and originally revealed by God…”


-Cardinal Juan De Lugo (a. d. 1583-1660), De Fide, Disputations



These theological arguments are very old.

Pope Paul VI recognized this in relation to atheists:


"...The Church can regard no one as excluded from its motherly embrace, no one as outside the scope of its motherly care. It has no enemies except those who wish to make themselves such. Its catholicity is no idle boast. It was not for nothing that it received its mission to foster love, unity and peace among men...Though We speak firmly and clearly in defence of religion, and of those human, spiritual values which it proclaims and cherishes, Our pastoral solicitude nevertheless prompts Us to probe into the mind of the modern atheist, in an effort to understand the reasons...

They are obviously many and complex, and we must come to a prudent decision about them, and answer them effectively. They sometimes spring from the demand for a more profound and purer presentation of religious truth, and an objection to forms of language and worship which somehow fall short of the ideal. These things we must remedy. We must do all we can to purify them and make them express more adequately the sacred reality of which they are the signs. We see these men serving a demanding and often a noble cause, fired with enthusiasm and idealism, dreaming of justice and progress and striving for a social order which they conceive of as the ultimate of perfection, and all but divine.

This, for them, is the Absolute and the Necessary...Again we see these men taking pains to work out scientific explanation of the universe by human reasoning, and they are often quite ingenuously enthusiastic about this.

It is an enquiry which is all the less reprehensible in that it follows rules of logic very similar to those which are taught in the best schools of philosophy...They are sometimes men of great breadth of mind, impatient with the mediocrity and self-seeking which infects so much of modern society. They are quick to make use of sentiments and expressions found in our Gospel, referring to the brotherhood of man, mutual aid, and human compassion...We do not therefore give up hope of the eventual possibility of a dialogue between these men and the Church

They are obviously many and complex, and we must come to a prudent decision about them, and answer them effectively. They sometimes spring from the demand for a more profound and purer presentation of religious truth, and an objection to forms of language and worship which somehow fall short of the ideal. These things we must remedy. We must do all we can to purify them and make them express more adequately the sacred reality of which they are the signs. We see these men serving a demanding and often a noble cause, fired with enthusiasm and idealism, dreaming of justice and progress and striving for a social order which they conceive of as the ultimate of perfection, and all but divine.

This, for them, is the Absolute and the Necessary...Again we see these men taking pains to work out scientific explanation of the universe by human reasoning, and they are often quite ingenuously enthusiastic about this.

It is an enquiry which is all the less reprehensible in that it follows rules of logic very similar to those which are taught in the best schools of philosophy...They are sometimes men of great breadth of mind, impatient with the mediocrity and self-seeking which infects so much of modern society. They are quick to make use of sentiments and expressions found in our Gospel, referring to the brotherhood of man, mutual aid, and human compassion...We do not therefore give up hope of the eventual possibility of a dialogue between these men and the Church
..."

- ECCLESIAM SUAM, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI , AUGUST 6, 1964

In other words, many atheists are sincere, intelligent and socially conscious people who just don't find the claims made on behalf of religion intellectually persuasive.

Or as the Second Vatican Council's pastoral constitution Gaudium et Spes (1965) put it:


Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern Word-Gaudium et Spes


"Atheism results not rarely from a violent protest against the evil in this world...For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion..."

The Church here recognizes that, at least to some extent, unbelief arises "through [our] fault, through [our] fault, through [our] most grievous fault", partly because we just aren't making persuasive, credible arguments in favour of religious belief.

And Catholicism is, and has always been, the largest Christian denomination. Nobody else in the Christian family matches us our 1.1 billion souls.

That said, from a purely secular reading of scripture it doesn't look like Jesus regarded anything other than works and purity of heart as necessary requirements for salvation. He doesn't seem to have particularly bothered about beliefs.

Jesus instructed his audience to stop thinking in terms of the "received wisdom" of their ancestors, as one scholar notes:


The Sermon on the Mount


Jesus was well aware that much of what he was going to say would be in fundamental contradiction to what the masses had been taught. He recognized that there would be a chasm, an incompatibility, between the prevailing orthodoxy (either popular, clerical, or both) that they had been raised in and that which he was advocating (Mt. 9:16, for example).

Indeed, he plainly told his audience that they already possessed the ability to make their own value judgements about his ministry, and that they shouldn't look for divine signs in the heavens to validate it:


Luke 12:57

“And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?"


That is a literal Greek translation of this verse:

GRK Δια τι δε και αφ' εαυτων δεν κρινετε το δικαιον

This is not an appeal to authority or sacred writ but to conscience, intuition and reason. One commentator, for instance, transliterates the meaning of this injunction as follows: "Why, even without signs, do you not judge rightly of me and of my doctrine by the natural light of reason and of conscience?" (J. R. Dummelow, op. cit., p. 755).

Thanks for your response.

Yes, I understand that you don't believe that one can be saved by faith alone. And, let's also set aside the category of people who have not had an opportunity to be offered the chance to enter the Church and focus on those who, like me, heard the offer and rejected it yet strive to become better human beings throughout their lives.

You wrote -- So yes, I believe that you can be 'saved' as an atheist - no doubt about that, our doctrinal teaching is clear.

If it's clear then why did the Vatican emphatically deny that Pope Francis said that very thing earlier this year to a journalist friend?

You wrote -- Catholicism is a religion of conscience. For us, conscience = the voice of God. All human beings have consciences and so all human beings are capable of being saved by the grace of God.

If it's true that my conscience is the voice of God, then why do I need the Church's moral guidance? Had I been a Catholic in 1866 my pope would have been telling me that nothing in divine law opposed my buying, selling and trading of slaves. Most of the world had already abolished legal slavery by then.

When I left the Church, shortly before the Second Vatican Council, I was being told to believe that the Catholic Church was the only path to Heaven. Protestants were going to Hell. I saw the arrogance in that position before the Church did.

I realized it was wrong to treat women as inferior many years before the Church did.
So, if moral progress is our mission in life then I can make more progress by leaving the Church behind.

When my conscience signals me that someone has committed a serious crime, the intuition is followed by a confirming urge to see the wrongdoer severely punished. If abortion is a sin as the Church contends, why is there no call for the woman who terminates her pregnancy to be severely punished? My conscience disagrees with the Church's position on abortion..

Also, it's my understanding that if there's a conflict between one's conscience and the Church's moral position that the Church advises following conscience. So, if all conflicts are resolved in favor of conscience, and Catholics only accept moral guidance when it agrees with their conscience, what's the point in the Church offering moral guidance?
 
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Cacotopia

Let's go full Trottle
So the now determines the past? All metaphysic reformations including the origon of christianity are rooted in the past as fundemental to the present. Its over time that the reformation moment in christianities case metamorphs into a collection of thoughts theories speculations and beliefs, back into the present determinging the past that it suddenly finds itself lost.

You can see it in christianity clearly. A heretic is executed, he is a heretic in his own time and culture. Roll about 350 years into the future, a religion has formed around him and it now is executing heretics in their own time. What exactly is not clear in their minds at this point?

The verse "in the beginning was the logos the logos was god the logos is god he was with god in the beginning" is neither simple nor perfectly clear. How we see the world either from the past into the present or from the present into the past determines automatically how that section is understood. Christianity today reads that as the present determines the past, very secular, very atheist very silly. I actually watch the variety of responses to such verses they almost all break out the backwards view of present determines past.

If Christianity never went through a reformation, it would still be as backwards and draconian as strict Islam is today. Who knows, it might be have been bigger if they never changed, the brutality in Islam doesn't seem to have slowed it's growth across the population.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The idea that Christianity has played, and will continue to play, a sort of 'midwife' role in the birth of secular societies is not a novel concept.
@Brickjectivity made a similar point in Sunstone's thread Why there is no way back for religion in the West ─ that (nearly) all the developed countries David Voas (U Essex) used in the video to illustrate the decline of religion were (necessarily) Christian.

Making the question, Is the decline of religion in the developed world due to a developed standard of living? Or to Christianity? Or to the two together? Or none of the above?

I've now done what I should have done before replying to Brickjectivity there, and listened again to Voas' talk. His most explicit statement is to this effect: That (worldwide) the most developed countries are the least religious and the least developed countries are the most religious. But as probably must be the case in so short a talk, he offers no clarification of the definitions or the data involved. I think it's fair to say that this conclusion (assumption?) is behind the whole argument he presents, so it's a pity it's not enlarged.

He also offers reasons (their basis again unelaborated): that citizens in developed countries ─
* have greater freedom of choice
* are exposed to scientific and secular views
* are more mobile, and experience other cultures and religions
* have available material solace rather than religious

and (I add) perhaps they're also less dependent on their immediate community hence its religion.

So why, exactly, would a Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or Daoist (&c) be more immune to such elements than a Christian?
German atheist philosopher Ernst Bloch (1885-1977), [...] that “only a Christian can be a good atheist and only an atheist can be a good Christian” in his book Atheism in Christianity.
But what does he say Christianity has, or lacks, that the other lack, or have?
Vattimo sees Jesus as the instigator of the desacralising weakening that has come to fruition in modernity. This weakening occurs through the exposition of the tendency of religions to be authoritarian and violent, particularly in demanding sacrifice...

"Jesus came into the world precisely to reveal and abolish the nexus between violence and the sacred"
I find that an extraordinary claim for a religion with as long a history of relentless bloodshed as Christianity, both on a grand scale like the Christianization of pagan Europe and the Crusades and the Reformation and Counter-reformation, and more regionally, like the colonization of the world by England, Spain, France, Portugal, Holland and Germany and the 'conversion' of locals ─ not to mention the slave trade. WW1 and with the exception of Japan, WW2, were fought between Christian nations. It was Christian America that invaded Iraq and we have Dubya's word for it that Jesus approved his decision.
atheist and Marxist philosopher Slavoj Žižek :

It is thus only in post-religious “atheist” radical-emancipatory collectives that we find the proper actualization of the Idea of the Christian collective— the necessary consequence of the “atheistic” nature of Christianity itself.
What's a post-religious "atheist" radical-emancipatory collective? Why would it matter?
Pew polling data in America, the largest Western country: that while Christianity is gradually declining into secular "noneism" with every passing generation, minority non-Christian religions are actually growing or retaining their membership (i.e. at least one-third of American Muslims (42%), Hindus (36%), and Buddhists (35%) are under the age of 30)?
Voas mentions this, at least in general terms, and says many people will always be drawn to religion. The question is whether they'll follow the Christian trend or be immune to it. Voas in effect says they won't. I suspect he'll be more right than wrong. But that's a guess. We'll see the answer in due course ─ or our descendants will.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The recent thread by @Sunstone regarding the decline of religiosity in the West, reminded me of the French atheist historian Marcel Gauchet and his controversial theory that Christianity is “the religion of the end of religion” as put forward in his book The Disenchantment of the World: A Political History of Religion (original French title: Le Désenchantement du monde. Une histoire politique de la religion, Gallimard, Paris, 1985).

The idea that Christianity has played, and will continue to play, a sort of 'midwife' role in the birth of secular societies is not a novel concept.

Indeed, it has been pushed relentlessly by many researchers and intellectuals, beginning with Nietzsche himself. The most exemplary account was given by German atheist philosopher Ernst Bloch (1885-1977), who so far as to say that “only a Christian can be a good atheist and only an atheist can be a good Christian” in his book Atheism in Christianity.

Gianni Vattimo, an Italian philosopher, MEP in the European Parliament and gay rights activist has also joined the intellectual party promoting this "Christianity = secular society" thesis:


https://www.iep.utm.edu/vattimo/#SH4b


Vattimo sees Jesus as the instigator of the desacralising weakening that has come to fruition in modernity. This weakening occurs through the exposition of the tendency of religions to be authoritarian and violent, particularly in demanding sacrifice...

"Jesus came into the world precisely to reveal and abolish the nexus between violence and the sacred"



Most recently, the atheist and Marxist philosopher Slavoj Žižek has put forward yet another iteration of the same basic argument:


It is thus only in post-religious “atheist” radical-emancipatory collectives that we find the proper actualization of the Idea of the Christian collective— the necessary consequence of the “atheistic” nature of Christianity itself.

—Slavoj Zizek, Less Than Nothing: Hegel and the Shadow of Dialectical Materialism


It makes me wonder: are these atheist-secular scholars right, after all? Is there something inherent within the Christian worldview that by accident makes it more conducive to atheism and secularism than other religions, as odd as this might appear from a superficial understanding of the faith?

And could this be one factor, among many, in helping to explain the verdict of Pew polling data in America, the largest Western country: that while Christianity is gradually declining into secular "noneism" with every passing generation, minority non-Christian religions are actually growing or retaining their membership (i.e. at least one-third of American Muslims (42%), Hindus (36%), and Buddhists (35%) are under the age of 30)?

Interesting post.

There is generalised loss of the vitality of men's belief no matter what the religion. This is an inevitability of modernisation. The Western world that we both live has a culture that finds it acceptable to leave religion and in some quarters desirable to do so. In Islamic countries it is not so easy to leave Islam.

I appreciate that the Catholic church has made steps to reform itself in light of the Vatican II council and that's a step in the right direction. I've never had an argument with a Catholic and they are not pushy and evangelical to the extent some Protestant Christian groups are. Unfortunately these take up much of the social discourse about religion. It would not be hard to make a list of non-negotiable beliefs that conservative evangelical Christians hold that might be a turn off for one who lives in a modern multicultural society.

1/ There is only one way to Jesus. If you don't believe in Jesus you will go to hell. Salvation is only through Christ and the cross.

2/ Jesus literally rose from the dead and after 40 days of appearances ascended through the stratosphere to be with HIs father in heaven.

3/ To be a Christian you have to believe in the bible and take much of it literally. That includes a young earth, a world wide flood, the story of Adam and Eve. Literalism can include an insistance that all the miracles in the Bible happened as recorded.

4/ We are saved by faith in Christ alone. If you are a horrible person but believe in Christ you are probably saved by the grace of God anyhow. If you are a wonderful person but not a Christian then you are not saved.

5/ The world is an evil place. Satan is going around decieving us all. We are fallen creatures.

6/ Only Christ's Return can save us. He is going to return on clouds that can be seen by all. The righteous Christians will be raised up into heaven and all the sinners will be left on earth and that will be our punishment.

7/ God hates LGBTQ

I could continue, but with the dominance of evangelical Christians proselytizing and insisting their truth, its not hard to see why many feel like they are being manipulated by fear. its hard for many to believe or see the revelance of this kind of belief system.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Thanks for your response.

Yes, I understand that you don't believe that one can be saved by faith alone. And, let's also set aside the category of people who have not had an opportunity to be offered the chance to enter the Church and focus on those who, like me, heard the offer and rejected it yet strive to become better human beings throughout their lives.

Your position is no different from those raised as non-Christians i.e. as explained by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn in 1952:


"...The Catholic has the duty of forming, educating and training his conscience...

Yet the Catholic who has lost his faith and who honestly accepts the teachings of another religious body commits a mortal sin if he does not publically embrace whatever religion he believes in. Father O'Karr very wisely points out that George Bernard Shaw was very much mistaken when he claimed Saint Joan of Arc for Protestantism. It was precisely her defiance of ecclesiastical authority and her strict adherence to her conscience which made her canonization (elevation to sainthood) possible within Catholicism...

According to Catholic theology it is, therefore, quite likely that Jan Hus' soul went straight to heaven after his death, provided he sincerely believed in his own views, however erroneous..."


No, you didn't read that wrongly: "Yet the Catholic who has lost his faith and who honestly accepts the teachings of another religious body commits a mortal sin if he does not publically embrace whatever religion he believes in.".

See:


Handout - Conscience, Freud and Aquinas - Philosophical Investigations


St. Thomas explains this as follows. Conscience is one’s last and best judgment as to the choice one ought to make. If this judgment is mistaken, one does not know it at the time. One will follow one’s conscience if one is choosing reasonably. To the best of one’s knowledge and belief, it is God’s plan and will. So if one acts against one’s conscience, one is certainly in the wrong (see S.t., 1–2, q. 19, aa. 5–6).11

Thomas drives home his point. If a superior gives one an order which cannot be obeyed without violating one’s conscience, one must not obey. To obey the superior in this case would be to disobey what one believes to be the mind and will of God (see S.t., 1–2, q. 19, a. 5, ad 2; 2–2, q. 104, a. 5).12 It is good to abstain from fornication. But if one’s conscience is that one should choose to fornicate, one does evil if one does not fornicate. Indeed, to believe in Jesus is in itself good and essential for salvation; but one can only believe in him rightly if one judges that one ought to. Therefore, one whose conscience is that it is wrong to believe in Jesus would be morally guilty if he or she chose against this judgment.

You'd have committed a mortal sin had you refused the dictates of your conscience, as you understood them in all sincerity, to reject Catholicism for the reasons described (even though, objectively, the Church would regard your rationale although not the moral intuitions behind it to be in error).

In the quotations I referenced above, where the Magisterium refers to the rise of atheism it is discussing people leaving Christianity for atheism. I am not aware of any insinuation that these people are damned by their decision. Indeed, there is some praise given for their scientific endeavours and striving for temporal justice, which isn't exactly how you'd expect the church to speak of people it thought were irredeemably lost.

You wrote -- So yes, I believe that you can be 'saved' as an atheist - no doubt about that, our doctrinal teaching is clear.

If it's clear then why did the Vatican emphatically deny that Pope Francis said that very thing earlier this year to a journalist friend?

You've misunderstood it.

Some people thought he was advocating universalism, in the sense that everyone is "saved" irrespective of the moral choices they make.

He was simply re-stating standard doctrine.

If it's true that my conscience is the voice of God, then why do I need the Church's moral guidance? Had I been a Catholic in 1866 my pope would have been telling me that nothing in divine law opposed my buying, selling and trading of slaves. Most of the world had already abolished legal slavery by then.

The Church's historical doctrine on slavery is an historically far more complicated and variegated phenomenon than your above statement implies, but that's not a discussion I have time to go into at the moment.

I'll get onto that when I have more time, work wise.

When I left the Church, shortly before the Second Vatican Council, I was being told to believe that the Catholic Church was the only path to Heaven. Protestants were going to Hell. I saw the arrogance in that position before the Church did.

How strange then, that even Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the ultra-traditionalist founder of SSPX - a branch of traditional Catholicism that was excommunicated from the Church for rejecting Vatican II as liberalising heresy, could write:

"…There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit…The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church…"

- (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Saint Joan of Arc [...] It was precisely her defiance of ecclesiastical authority and her strict adherence to her conscience which made her canonization (elevation to sainthood) possible within Catholicism...
Not quite.

It was precisely her rediscovery (after centuries of dismissing her as insane) and immense popularity as a symbolic heroine among the invaded French in WW1 that made her canonization necessary; and once it was necessary, well, one way or another it was going to be possible.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If Christianity never went through a reformation, it would still be as backwards and draconian as strict Islam is today. Who knows, it might be have been bigger if they never changed, the brutality in Islam doesn't seem to have slowed it's growth across the population.
Wierd i dont think i said it wasnt in large swaths of history its made up of "normal" folks who cant read.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
I don't see how you can say Jesus failed because exactly as Jesus said at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 what he taught is now taught on a vast global international scale as never before in history.
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so that people even in remote areas can have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.

Not the 1st-century teachings of Christ that created syncretism, but the teachings of Christendom (apostate Christianity) did.
Christendom's teachings can't be reconciled with the 1st-century teachings of Christ, aka biblical Christianity.
Christendom is what has tried to blend or mix the 'secular with the sacred' resulting in such religious syncretism.
Christendom just tries to flourish as if it is the old original 1st-century Christianity when it is not.
So, No it is Not 1st-century Christianity that has failed, but rather Christendom that has failed Jesus.
Jesus failed because the second century Christianity is already something entirely different from what Jesus intended to start up if you go by the ideology of the Q sayings.
We don't know what kind of movements or ideologies were taught by proto-Christians in the first century because their scriptures were not preserved.
We do know that the Ebionites were vegetarians and lived in voluntary poverty, but we don't know much else about them.
We also know that Simon Magus was a gnostic type of teacher with occult powers but our picture of him is only a caricature made by his (later) Christian opponents (Paul could be an idealised and tamed version of him).

So it seems that if there ever was a mission like the person who spoke the sayings of Q intended to found, we have no information about it ever really continuing after Jesus disappeared from the scene.
The idea that there once was an "ideal" Christianity in the first century is based on nothing, it is just wishful thinking.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
The recent thread by @Sunstone regarding the decline of religiosity in the West, reminded me of the French atheist historian Marcel Gauchet and his controversial theory that Christianity is “the religion of the end of religion” as put forward in his book The Disenchantment of the World: A Political History of Religion (original French title: Le Désenchantement du monde. Une histoire politique de la religion, Gallimard, Paris, 1985).

The idea that Christianity has played, and will continue to play, a sort of 'midwife' role in the birth of secular societies is not a novel concept.

Indeed, it has been pushed relentlessly by many researchers and intellectuals, beginning with Nietzsche himself. The most exemplary account was given by German atheist philosopher Ernst Bloch (1885-1977), who so far as to say that “only a Christian can be a good atheist and only an atheist can be a good Christian” in his book Atheism in Christianity.

Gianni Vattimo, an Italian philosopher, MEP in the European Parliament and gay rights activist has also joined the intellectual party promoting this "Christianity = secular society" thesis:


https://www.iep.utm.edu/vattimo/#SH4b


Vattimo sees Jesus as the instigator of the desacralising weakening that has come to fruition in modernity. This weakening occurs through the exposition of the tendency of religions to be authoritarian and violent, particularly in demanding sacrifice...

"Jesus came into the world precisely to reveal and abolish the nexus between violence and the sacred"



Most recently, the atheist and Marxist philosopher Slavoj Žižek has put forward yet another iteration of the same basic argument:


It is thus only in post-religious “atheist” radical-emancipatory collectives that we find the proper actualization of the Idea of the Christian collective— the necessary consequence of the “atheistic” nature of Christianity itself.

—Slavoj Zizek, Less Than Nothing: Hegel and the Shadow of Dialectical Materialism


It makes me wonder: are these atheist-secular scholars right, after all? Is there something inherent within the Christian worldview that by accident makes it more conducive to atheism and secularism than other religions, as odd as this might appear from a superficial understanding of the faith?

And could this be one factor, among many, in helping to explain the verdict of Pew polling data in America, the largest Western country: that while Christianity is gradually declining into secular "noneism" with every passing generation, minority non-Christian religions are actually growing or retaining their membership (i.e. at least one-third of American Muslims (42%), Hindus (36%), and Buddhists (35%) are under the age of 30)?

The enthronement of logical reasoning and the politicization of institutional Christianity has eroded the vitality of spirituality for those who live in Christian dominated cultures. Those who argue a spirituality without death, demonize nature, masculinize truth are showing the seeds of everyone's destruction.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Do any of the Hindu religions have a concept of conversion?
I don't think there's any ritual to go through. But if a western convert visits India, they are well advised to get a certificate from their local temple saying that they are a Hindu, or else they won't get into those Indian temples that are closed to non-Hindus.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Jesus failed because the second century Christianity is already something entirely different from what Jesus intended to start up......................
The idea that there once was an "ideal" Christianity in the first century is based on nothing, it is just wishful thinking.

My point exactly about 2nd-century Christianity because that is exactly what Luke warns about at Acts 20:29-30.
Also, Jesus made the point about fake 'weed/tares' being growing together with the genuine 'wheat' Christians.
That growing together means over the vast many centuries that after the end of the first century an apostate/fake Christianity would grow along side of the 1st-century teachings of Jesus as recorded in Scripture.
The idea of a 1st-century Christianity is based on recorded Scripture ( Bible canon of '66' books )
Those 1st-century teachings are Not wishful thinking, but recorded teachings on paper for all to read.
So, the weed/tares and genuine wheat grow together until the future coming time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
This coming ' time of separation ' is still ahead of us, and people will find Jesus' words to be truth.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
This sets up a dichotomy which I think is not only false and repellent but self-defeating.

What two parts is there to the Golden Rule that is false and repellent and self-defeating.
I find No two parts to Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35 that is false, repellent or self-defeating to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has. To me, self-sacrificing love for others does Not set up any dichotomy but unites. What dichotomy is there about the illustration about the good neighborly Samaritan.
 
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