Christianity verses Islam

[9Westy9]

Think of it like Global Warming. As time passes and more and more evidence comes to the fore more and more people believe in it. But an honest minded person would be satisfied with the evidence at hand.

How does this relate at all to what we were talking about?

However, the dishonest person uses the doubts that still exist in the phenomena of global warming to serve his/her selfish interests.

Or he isn't convinced by the evidence.

The purpose of the coming of the Prophet is to separate the honest people from the dishonest ones. Clear cut evidence and clarity would lead to a majority of the dishonest tagging along with the Prophet of God. Even the most arrogant person who denies the existence of the sun would be forced to accept it when the sun shines in his face. But it is the honest person who sees the light through the clouds.

So you're saying that obvious divine prophecy would make dishonest people who don't want to believe believe? Absurd. If I were god I'd make my existence clear. If people still wouldn't want to follow me then at least they're making an informed choice. Whereas god(s) seems to prefer hiding away in riddles. Also what does honesty have to do with 'seeing the sun through the clouds'. If you haven't seen the sun then you're being dishonest by claiming it definitely exists. Only when you can see the sun shining can you be sure.

P.S. I do hope you believe in global warming. It'll serve to clear things up. If not then I need to think of another example.

I haven't looked enough at the evidence to decide. No need to derail the thread over it though

You say one could do this and one could do that but can you show me a single example of an individual who claimed to be a Prophet of God and made prophecies that came true? There are a plethora of prophecies at the disposal of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. But let me break it to you now. None are as clear as what you demand.

1) Not arguing for a different prophet I'm arguing against divine prophecy fullstop.

2) Come at me bro (i.e. show me the most convincing prophecies you have)

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Here is another prophecy about the end of John Alexander Dowie made 100 years ago by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian that came to pass. A sign for the seekers of truth in USA. Newspapers in the USA gave ample coverage of the incident.

Below is a photostat and text of Herald-Boston's coverage of the prophecy:
Great Is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

"Dowie died with his friends fallen away from him and his fortune dwindled. He suffered from paralysis and insanity. He died a miserable death, with Zion city torn and frayed by internal dissension. Mirza comes forward frankly and states that he has won his challenge." (Herald of Boston, June 23, 1907)

"Ahmad and his adherents may be pardoned for taking some credit for the accuracy with which the prophecy was fulfilled a few months ago." (Dunville Gazette, June 7, 1907)

"The Qadian man predicted that if Dowie accepted the challenge, `he shall leave the world before my eyes with great sorrow and torment.' If Dowie declined, the Mirza said, `the end would only be deferred; death awaited him just the same, and calamity will soon overtake Zion.' That was the grand prophecy: Zion should fall and Dowie die before Ahmad. It appeared to be a risky step for the Promised Messiah to defy the restored Elijah to an endurance test, for the challenger was by 15 years the older man of the two and probabilities in a land of plagues and famines were against him as a survivor, but he won out." (Truth Seeker, June 15, 1907)

 

[9Westy9]

Here is another prophecy about the end of John Alexander Dowie made 100 years ago by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian that came to pass. A sign for the seekers of truth in USA. Newspapers in the USA gave ample coverage of the incident.

Below is a photostat and text of Herald-Boston's coverage of the prophecy:
Great Is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Can I have a quote of the prophecy and an article to the 'fulfilment'

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Can I have a quote of the prophecy and an article to the 'fulfilment'

I should give one quote but I need time to find the Urdu source of the quote:

I am the true Messiah who was to come in the last ages. This has Almighty spoken to me. I do not claim to be the Promised Messiah by my own assertion, but Almighty God, who made the earth and heaven, has borne witness to the truth of my claim. The evidence of God has passed His grace on me in far greater abundance than upon the Messiah who has gone before me. In the looking glass of my person, the face of God is revealed to a far greater extent than in that of Jesus' person. If these simply are my own words and there is no authority for them, then I am a liar; but Almighty God bears witness to my truth. No one can give lie to me. Thousands of times, I should say, times without number, has He borne witness to the truth of my claim. A sign of evidence of God in my favor will appear in the death of Mr. Piggot -- the arrogant pretender to divinity, who shall be brought to destruction within my life time. Another sign will appear on Dr. Dowie's acceptance of my challenge. If the pretender of Elijahship shows his willingness by any direct or indirect means to enter the lists against me, he shall leave the world before my eyes with great sorrow and torment. These two signs are for Europe and America.

Note that he not only predicted his leaving the world but also his leaving with sorrow and torment. I am sure there are more detailed prophecy in this regard. I would get back to you.

I don't have a link to the image of the fulfillment link. Since you seem interested you may try to find it on my behalf and would be doing me a favor. If you can privately tell me your address (and if you are in USA) I can direct you to a local chapter of the community who I am sure have the originals. The following URLs have info on the Divine challenge.

A Brief History of Ahmadiyya Movement In Islam
http://www.alislam.org/library/impostor.html
http://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000213.html

 

[9Westy9]

I should give one quote but I need time to find the Urdu source of the quote:


Note that he not only predicted his leaving the world but also his leaving with sorrow and torment. I am sure there are more detailed prophecy in this regard. I would get back to you.

I don't have a link to the image of the fulfillment link. Since you seem interested you may try to find it on my behalf and would be doing me a favor. If you can privately tell me your address (and if you are in USA) I can direct you to a local chapter of the community who I am sure have the originals. The following URLs have info on the Divine challenge.

A Brief History of Ahmadiyya Movement In Islam
http://www.alislam.org/library/impostor.html
http://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000213.html

There don't seem to be any specifics in the prophecy. Claiming that Dr. Dowie will die isn't hard to fulfil. Claiming he'll die first isn't too much of a risk either.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

There don't seem to be any specifics in the prophecy. Claiming that Dr. Dowie will die isn't hard to fulfil. Claiming he'll die first isn't too much of a risk either.

Really? Can a normal human being guarantee that he would be alive tomorrow? In fact the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad suffered from various illnesses all his life and Dowie was 12 years younger to the Promised Messiah and Dowie's fellowship was booming at the time the prophecy was made.

Furthermore, the prophecy (as pointed out in previous post) did not prophecize a typical death but one in sorrow and torment. It is all a fluke and calculated risks isn't it?

 

[9Westy9]

Really? Can a normal human being guarantee that he would be alive tomorrow? In fact the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad suffered from various illnesses all his life and Dowie was 12 years younger to the Promised Messiah and Dowie's fellowship was booming at the time the prophecy was made.

Furthermore, the prophecy (as pointed out in previous post) did not prophecize a typical death but one in sorrow and torment. It is all a fluke and calculated risks isn't it?

I could prophecy that I will be alive tomorrow. I probably will be. Low risk.

It's not very improbable that he'll be right. Either A he'll be wrong and people will have written him off or b he'll be right and people will claims he's god given. With A there's no real repercussion as he'll be dead and with B there's great repercussion to his advantage (i.e. a large number of worshippers and people believing he's the messiah). If he had prophesied in detail how and when Dowie would die, for example, then he'd have made a high risk prophecy. In fact it's almost impossible. If a prophecy doesn't seem impossible or near impossible then it's hard to say it's god given rather than due to chance.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

I could prophecy that I will be alive tomorrow. I probably will be. Low risk.

It's not very improbable that he'll be right. Either A he'll be wrong and people will have written him off or b he'll be right and people will claims he's god given. With A there's no real repercussion as he'll be dead and with B there's great repercussion to his advantage (i.e. a large number of worshippers and people believing he's the messiah). If he had prophesied in detail how and when Dowie would die, for example, then he'd have made a high risk prophecy. In fact it's almost impossible. If a prophecy doesn't seem impossible or near impossible then it's hard to say it's god given rather than due to chance.

Hmm ... too bad these don't convince you. There are more if you are willing to explore (the internet or Wikipedia even should suffice). These prophecies might not be enough to convince you but I would hope they were enough to rouse your curiosity. I gave you two prophecies and you simply claimed that they were not specific enough and that he got lucky.

Good luck to you ... Christianity shows no such things in this day and age even though Jesus said that a ounce of belief should be enough to show miracles (not that you are Christian but the OP and all).