Christianity vs Baha'i

[TransmutingSoul]

There's a unity and cohesiveness to scripture that enabled Jesus to say, 'scripture cannot be broken' [John 10:35]. This fits with 2 Peter 1:20, that says that 'no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation'. In other words, scripture is circular and complete.

It was Christ in Baha'u'llah that gave Interpretation from God, thus it is no Baha'i that has to have a private interpretation, Baha'u'llah's Claim is true, or false, and must be judged by what Christ offered.

There is no Christian that can say that their interpretation of the Bible is not a personal One, there is no explanation of those Bible Verses given by Jesus or the Apostles.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

@CG Didymus

When it comes about authority, the Writings of Bahaullah has certainly the authority, in comparison with a letter written by an individual on behalf of Universal House of Justice, or even a letter on behalf of the Gurduan.


This is what Bahaullah wrote:


"Thus the Torah issued from the tongue of Moses. The same is true of other Holy Scriptures: all were revealed by the tongues of Prophets and Messengers but, the real Speaker[14] in all these Holy Books is the One true God....
It is now, therefore, established and confirmed that the station of ‘Sacrifice of God’ was, according to past Books,[15] given to Isaac by Abraham and that very same station is, according to Divine Revelation, Ishmael’s in the Qur’ánic Dispensation."

Tablet to Hájí Mírzá Kamálu'd-Dín

Interesting. So when it says... "The Guardian confirms that the record in the Qur'án and in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld." That person writing on behalf of the Guardian or the UHJ might be wrong... and in this case is wrong? Great, just great.

So exactly what are Baha'is saying, that both Isaac and Ishmael were literally taken to be sacrificed? That Abraham made two trips? Or is it some kind of "symbolic" thing? And, besides, like we really believe the story anyway. Really, Abraham hears a voice. The voice says it is God speaking and that he wants Abraham to kill his son. And Abraham believes that voice?

Today, wouldn't we lock up someone that heard that kind of stuff? So the next question... Do Baha'is even believe the story literally happened? And some Baha'i here argued that it had to be Ishmael, and Ishmael only, because it says Abraham's "only" son. The only time Abraham only had one son was before Isaac was born.

 

[CG Didymus]

It was Christ in Baha'u'llah that gave Interpretation from God, thus it is no Baha'i that has to have a private interpretation, Baha'u'llah's Claim is true, or false, and must be judged by what Christ offered.

There is no Christian that can say that their interpretation of the Bible is not a personal One, there is no explanation of those Bible Verses given by Jesus or the Apostles.

Regards Tony

Hmmm? When the NT says that Jesus rose from the grave. Does that need interpretation? Why wouldn't it mean what it says? The only reason now that we try and find an interpretation to verses like that is because to lots of us it doesn't make sense. And that is what Baha'is do. They say that dead people don't come back to life, so those verses must mean something else.

But why would some Christians not take those verses to mean exactly what they say? For them, why couldn't the body of Jesus come back to life, since they believe that God could and has done things like that. And, if God did resurrect Jesus back to life, the Baha'i Faith is false. If Jesus' body is dead and turned to dust, then the NT has misled millions of people and is not telling the truth about God and Jesus.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Interesting. So when it says... "The Guardian confirms that the record in the Qur'án and in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld." That person writing on behalf of the Guardian or the UHJ might be wrong... and in this case is wrong? Great, just great.

So exactly what are Baha'is saying, that both Isaac and Ishmael were literally taken to be sacrificed? That Abraham made two trips? Or is it some kind of "symbolic" thing? And, besides, like we really believe the story anyway. Really, Abraham hears a voice. The voice says it is God speaking and that he wants Abraham to kill his son. And Abraham believes that voice?

Today, wouldn't we lock up someone that heard that kind of stuff? So the next question... Do Baha'is even believe the story literally happened? And some Baha'i here argued that it had to be Ishmael, and Ishmael only, because it says Abraham's "only" son. The only time Abraham only had one son was before Isaac was born.

My understanding is, such a story is not literal. It is symbolic. There is another Tablet by Bahaullah. He explained this sacrifice, is similar to how Muhammad sacrificed Imam Hossein. That, is, sacrifice for the cause of God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do Baha'is believe Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus are manifestations?

Yes, to name a Few. Baha'u'llah has confirmed from God this is so.

The Kitab-i-Iqan explains this in detail, but Bahauallah and then Abdu'lbaha have given many writings on the subject.

Do they believe the Bible stories about these people are literally true?

They beleive there is an outward meaning and inward meanings

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted."

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

" We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

Every passage in the Bible is like that, the outward meaning will be based most likely on a miraculous happening, but it was not that miracle that was important, it is the spiritual stories behind that outward event that is important.

All the miracles of the Bible happen in each Messengers life, but Baha'u'llah has got it 100% right when he says they are only a temporal proof to those that witness them and that is why we now never use them as proofs.

Look at the Bab's execution, why has not the world embraced the Bab when the Bab demonstrated the Power He had over humanity, that no one could put him to death until God said it was time. I have told you now of a great miracle, will you see it as a proof.

No you will not, thus that is why many Christians are now blinded, they expect they will see visual miracles to confirm Faith, Wheras only those that see the Spirit in the Messenger will accept such events as proof.

Do they use verses from the Bible, usually out of context, as prophecies about Baha'u'llah?

The other option is that the Bible was written to prepare us for and to give praise to the Father Baha'u'llah and it all points to Baha'u'llah.

Given that Baha'u'llah glorified Christ and said He has once again come for the Salvation of the world, though His name is not Jesus Name, it is more likely it is about the Glory of God.

Do Baha'is believe the stories about Daniel and his friends, about him being thrown to the lions and not eaten and them thrown into a furnace and not being burned to death?

As above.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm? When the NT says that Jesus rose from the grave. Does that need interpretation? Why wouldn't it mean what it says?

I see it does means that the Spirit of Jesus Christ rose, the Spirit can not be killed.

When we also consider what Jesus say about flesh and there is the answer.

When we consider what Jesus says is true life, then we have the answer.

If we want an miracle to please our outward senses, then we do not have the answer.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The question was saying that Revelation and the rest of the NT, at the very least, implies it is Jesus that conquered death and is alive and is coming back... that no other person ever had the power to forgive sins.

It is Christ that comes back.

Jesus asked Peter as to who he was.

If we read Peter's reply, that is the understanding the Church should have been built upon. That is Jesus was Christ, Annointed of the Hoky Spirit.

It is Christ that does not die, it is Christ that returns in a New Name.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Gee, that's a good idea. Where did you get such a good idea? Except, I don't know about down under, but in the U.S. every new generation makes up new words and gives new meanings to old words. Actually, you guys have some very unique words yourselves.

Ha ha. I do not hide where I get my ideas from.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So exactly what are Baha'is saying, that both Isaac and Ishmael were literally taken to be sacrificed? That Abraham made two trips? Or is it some kind of "symbolic" thing? And, besides, like we really believe the story anyway. Really, Abraham hears a voice. The voice says it is God speaking and that he wants Abraham to kill his son. And Abraham believes that voice?

CG, I see it is saying the story is a Spiritual lesson and that both Ishmael and Isaac have been given the blessing of being given in sacrafice to God.

The same has happened in the Baha'i dispensation, Baha'u'llah gave the station of a Martyr to some people who were not physically put to death.

God rewards our spiritual choices, the consequences of those good and bad choices revert to the world we live in.

So one was given the station of sacrafice in the Bible, one was given the station in the Quran.

The story remains a spiritual lesson, be prepared to sacrafice all when one say they beleive, we will be tested.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But why would some Christians not take those verses to mean exactly what they say? For them, why couldn't the body of Jesus come back to life, since they believe that God could and has done things like that. And, if God did resurrect Jesus back to life, the Baha'i Faith is false. If Jesus' body is dead and turned to dust, then the NT has misled millions of people and is not telling the truth about God and Jesus.

I see that God has written how God will show us the Messengers, in a way the requires us to use our spiritual vision, in a way that requires us to submit to the Spirit of Faith, to be born again.

The Jews still wait for their visions to be fulfilled of how God will send the Messiah. Yet 4 more have now walked the earth.

So the Jews wait, the Christians wait, the Muslims wait as do the Buddhist, the Zoroastrians and some Krishna Hindu, the list goes on.

Baha'u'llah has said for what do you wait?

Abdu'lbaha gave it in great detail;

"Do ye know in what cycle ye are created and in what age ye exist? This is the age of the Blessed Perfection and this is the time of the Greatest Name! This is the century of the Manifestation, the age of the Sun of the Horizons and the beautiful springtime of His Holiness the Eternal One!
The earth is in motion and growth; the mountains, hills and prairies are green and pleasant; the bounty is overflowing; the mercy universal; the rain is descending from the cloud of mercy; the brilliant Sun is shining; the full moon is ornamenting the horizon of ether; the great ocean-tide is flooding every little stream; the gifts are successive; the favors consecutive; and the refreshing breeze is blowing, wafting the fragrant perfume of the blossoms. Boundless treasure is in the hand of the King of Kings! Lift the hem of thy garment in order to receive it.
If we are not happy and joyous at this season, for what other season shall we wait and for what other time shall we look?
This is the time for growing; the season for joyous gathering! Take the cup of the Testament in thy hand; leap and dance with ecstasy in the triumphal procession of the Covenant! Lay your confidence in the everlasting bounty, turn to the presence of the generous God; ask assistance from the Kingdom of Abhá; seek confirmation from the Supreme World; turn thy vision to the horizon of eternal wealth; and pray for help from the Source of Mercy!.... "

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

All the miracles of the Bible happen in each Messengers life, but Baha'u'llah has got it 100% right when he says they are only a temporal proof to those that witness them and that is why we now never use them as proofs.

So Jesus did rise from the dead and walk on water, and Moses parted the waters and turned his cane into a snake, but those were only "proofs" when they happened? We can't trust the people that wrote about those things and said that they were true? No, I don't think that's what Baha'is believe. Am I wrong in thinking that Baha'is take most all those types of things symbolically and not literally?

 

[CG Didymus]

No you will not, thus that is why many Christians are now blinded, they expect they will see visual miracles to confirm Faith, Wheras only those that see the Spirit in the Messenger will accept such events as proof.

But you weren't there, yet you trust the people that say that is what happened. But I heard another "miracle" told by a Baha'i, a traveling teacher. She was being driven to a remote Indian village out in the desert. She said that part of the road was washed out by a flash flood. She told the driver to back up and floor it. She said they made the jump. From that moment on, I didn't trust a thing she said. Unless the road ramped up and the other side ramped down, it defies the laws of physics. Just like human bodies don't come back to life or walk on water. So should I disbelieve the gospel stories and say think the writers were a bunch of liars?

 

[CG Didymus]

I see it does means that the Spirit of Jesus Christ rose, the Spirit can not be killed.

When we also consider what Jesus say about flesh and there is the answer.

When we consider what Jesus says is true life, then we have the answer.

If we want an miracle to please our outward senses, then we do not have the answer.

Regards Tony

The spirit rising is not a miracle if you and others believe everybody has a spirit the doesn't die but rises and goes into a spiritual world. The gospel story goes out of its way to say that Jesus had some type of physical body and was not a ghost which I guess could also mean a spirit. Most logical answer? They made it all up. The spiritual answer? God brought him back to life to show that his son Jesus could conquer death. If he didn't come back to life, then he didn't conquer death, and it's just a made up story.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ha ha. I do not hide where I get my ideas from.

Regards Tony

But I bet you there's some Aussies that will be speaking English and I won't have a clue what they are saying. But I get what Baha'is are saying. With a common language all people will be able to communicate.

But I wonder why God scrambled up all the languages at the Tower of Babel? He mixed them up, then he wants us to have one language we all can understand. Fickle. He's got to make up his mind. Or, again, the Bible story is just myth.

 

[CG Didymus]

CG, I see it is saying the story is a Spiritual lesson and that both Ishmael and Isaac have been given the blessing of being given in sacrafice to God.

The same has happened in the Baha'i dispensation, Baha'u'llah gave the station of a Martyr to some people who were not physically put to death.

God rewards our spiritual choices, the consequences of those good and bad choices revert to the world we live in.

So one was given the station of sacrafice in the Bible, one was given the station in the Quran.

The story remains a spiritual lesson, be prepared to sacrafice all when one say they beleive, we will be tested.

Regards Tony

A spiritual lesson? But was the story real and historical? Did God really tell Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? If it's just a "spiritual" lesson, then no. It can be a fictional, mythical story. Why make it such a big deal which son if was? Except that by adding Ishmael in there, Baha'u'llah ties in Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

If one accepts that days 5 and 6 of God's prophetic week are the Messianic era, then it becomes clear that scripture is pointing people to the Messiah as the Redeemer of mankind. To ensure that the Redeemer is not mistaken there are numerous prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures to identify the Messiah. The most obvious is ancestry, which flows from Adam through Abraham to King David.

1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh

"Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.

"The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)

12: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH

Genealogy of Baha’u’llah Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh

We also know that the Messiah is to be of the tribe of Judah, and that he is to be born in Bethlehem. Do any of these prophecies find fulfilment in Baha'u'llah, or in Bab?

What verses say that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem?

There was more than one Messiah. Jesus was a Messiah, but He was not slated to be the Messiah of the last days, not the Redeemer of mankind. That was Baha'u'llah.

“However, it was in the Book of Zechariah that I found the most striking evidence of all that the great Redeemer of the last days would come from Babylon. When Zechariah saw the vision of the one who would say: ‘I am returned to Jerusalem’, he also beheld two olive trees. He asked God to tell him the meaning of the appearance of these two olive trees which appeared in his vision.

“Knowest thou not what these be?’ the Lord asked.

“No, my Lord,’ Zechariah answered.

Then God explained the meaning. Zechariah records it thus:“Then he answered me and spoke unto me saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel …” (Zechariah 4:6). In addition to being the name of a rule, this title ‘Zerubbabel’ has a special symbolic significance when we examine its true meaning as given in these verses of Zechariah.The word Zerubbabel, according to the Oxford University Press red-letter edition of the King James version of the Bible, means ‘Begotten in Babylon’. Other references say that it means ‘Scattered in Babylon’. Cruden, in his Unabridged Concordance, declares it to mean ‘Banished in Babylon’ or‘Stranger in Babylon’. (‘Born’ in other editions.)

All these descriptions fit Bahá’u’lláh. He was ‘banished’ to Babylon from Persia. He was a ‘stranger’ in that land. There in Babylon, his Faith was‘begotten’. He was in the end ‘scattered’ with his followers, until he, himself,reached the ancient land of Canaan promised by God to Abraham as an inheritance in the last days.

The Faith of Abraham and the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh were both ‘begotten’ in Babylon. The Holy Spirit descended upon each of them in Babylon, and they poured forth the light from their houses of truth in that ancient land. This,too, was foreseen and foretold by Zechariah in his vision:“Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, “The hands of Zerubbabel (Begotten in Babylon) have laid the foundation of this house;
his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hostshath sent me unto you.” (Zechariah 4:8–9).

The Word of God, Abraham, laid the foundation of the house of Israel in Babylon. The Word of God, Bahá’u’lláh finished it, and brought it to fulfilment. Both were ‘begotten in Babylon’. Thus, it was to them, Zerubbabel, that Zechariah directed the message of God:

“This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel (Begotten in Babylon) saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.” (Zechariah 4:6). Lest there be any mistake, Zechariah asked God once more concerning the meaning of the two olive trees. The Lord answered him saying:“These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zechariah 4:14).

These two olive trees were Abraham who began the concept of the oneness of God in Babylon, and Bahá’u’lláh who brought the concept of the oneness of God and religion to its fulfilment in Babylon. In yet another way,these two olive trees were the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh, who in the last days ‘standby the Lord of the whole earth’.

I also discovered that the meaning of the word Baghdád, the city in which Bahá’u’lláh declared his Mission, is: ‘The City of God’.

Again, Bahá’u’lláh had fulfilled the promises of the sacred Scripture. He had kept the prophecies of Micah, Isaiah, Zechariah, and those of Islám and India, which foretold that the Messiah would come to the land of Babylon,withdraw into the wilderness, then, from that land of ancient mystery, proclaim his mission to the whole world.

I marked the second proof: Fulfilled.
Thief in the Night, pp. 115-117

***************************************

All the other proofs that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah of the last days can be found in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sex and religion? Yeah, no controversy there. And I get that you don't like football, but even the Seahawks?

I think that thread is dead, finally.
I do like football, but I never have time to watch it!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But you weren't there, yet you trust the people that say that is what happened. But I heard another "miracle" told by a Baha'i, a traveling teacher. She was being driven to a remote Indian village out in the desert. She said that part of the road was washed out by a flash flood. She told the driver to back up and floor it. She said they made the jump. From that moment on, I didn't trust a thing she said. Unless the road ramped up and the other side ramped down, it defies the laws of physics. Just like human bodies don't come back to life or walk on water. So should I disbelieve the gospel stories and say think the writers were a bunch of liars?

All for you do decide CG.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

What verses say that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem?

Micah 5:2 [Matthew 2:6]. 'But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.'

It's clear that God's Messiah, 'David my servant', is to be born in the city of David, the town where Jesse lived.

1 Samuel 16:1.'...I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite...'

The Romans required that a census take place, and the management was left to the Jews to sort out. Under Herod the Great, a census was organised that required all Jews to register in the towns and cities of their ancestors.

According to the angel Gabriel, the baby born to Mary in Bethlehem, 'shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.'

There's absolutely no room for any other Messiah in these prophecies. Jesus Christ appeared hundreds of years before Baha'u'llah and it's clear that his reign is 'for ever'.

 

[Audie]

Micah 5:2 [Matthew 2:6]. 'But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.'

It's clear that God's Messiah, 'David my servant', is to be born in the city of David, the town where Jesse lived.

1 Samuel 16:1.'...I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite...'

The Romans required that a census take place, and the management was left to the Jews to sort out. Under Herod the Great, a census was organised that required all Jews to register in the towns and cities of their ancestors.

According to the angel Gabriel, the baby born to Mary in Bethlehem, 'shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.'

There's absolutely no room for any other Messiah in these prophecies. Jesus Christ appeared hundreds of years before Baha'u'llah and it's clear that his reign is 'for ever'.

"Jesus" never reigned over anything and the
" house of Jacob"??

In what parallel universe is that?