Christianity vs Baha'i

[Trailblazer]

If true then gospels are not true, but myth.

So those things didn't happen?

So the gospel writers made it up?

Ah, legends... not real events.

It is possible. as that article said. that the resurrection stories are based upon myths and legends.
No, I do not believe they were real events.
I do not know if the gospel writers made the stories up knowingly, or what their motives would have been.

And how do liberal Christians interpret them? It sounds like they should not consider any of these stories as being real and from God, but rather from man. And, if that's so, I have no problem with it. But, is that what Baha'u'llah says about the NT and the rest of the Bible?

I think that literal Christians believe the stories were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and written by men.
If you want to know what Baha'u'llah believes about the Bible, you should read The Kitab-i-Iqan.

In that book, Baha'u'llah talked some about the Prophets in the Bible and when they appeared in history, and He told the Muslims He was addressing that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures.

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

 

[Trailblazer]

What is actually said about a first and second resurrection in Revelation? Then, how do Baha'is interpret it?

I don't know, maybe you should ask Tony. I saw where he said there were actually three resurrections.
I am thinking Tony meant Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, but I am not sure.

 

[Trailblazer]

And who isn't "raised" in spirit from the dead? What would be the great miracle in that?

The spiritually dead are not raised from the dead; they remain dead in their graves, metaphorically speaking of course.

In the following verse, I believe Jesus was referring to the hour when Baha'u'llah would come and resurrect people from their graves of ignorance of God. How different that is from the Christian interpretation!

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The following passage refers to being fast asleep in their graves of ignorance of God because they rejected the Manifestation of God. Notice how Baha'u'llah mentions the Water of Life, that which bestows eternal life for those who are awakened and resurrected.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.

O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169

Please note that history repeats itself as Jesus also spoke of the Water of Life which He offered in His Day.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Revelation 22:1-2 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Finally, below is one of my favorite passages that refers to rising from graves. Note the part in bold.

“Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42

 

[Trailblazer]

So the body of Jesus died but did not come back to life, or resurrect. The soul and spirit did not die but were resurrected? Why would they need to be resurrected if they weren't dead?

I suggested starting over because I wanted to correct what I formerly said, which was very confusing.

The body of Jesus died but did not come back to life, or resurrect. The soul (spirit) did not die because the soul (spirit) of any man is immortal, so it cannot die.

When I said "resurrect" I meant that after the body died, the soul (spirit) passed from this world into the spiritual world and continued to live. I hope you understand the paragraph below because it is very important.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

 

[Dawnofhope]

The question is about using 457BC as the starting point for the 2300 evenings and mornings. I think it should be when all that stuff about the sacrifice being stopped and that thing about the abomination. The context has the Ram and the Goat in there and then says who these animals represent. So what I've heard is that Antiochus Epiphanes is the one that desecrated the temple... if so, then when did that happen and when was the Temple cleansed. Thanks.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a central character in the narrative of Daniel 11:21-35. He was an anti-Christ like figure that was certainly associated with the desecration of the Jewish Temple. However the meaning of Daniel 9:24-27 is controversial and there is no agreement among Christians or the secular scholars who assume prophecy is not possible. One theory amongst secular scholars is Antiochus. Obviously this theory would not fit with a Baha'i view,

In Biblical terms each day is a year,. For example:

Numbers 14:34: The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan

Ezekiel 4:5-6: The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.

Therefore, 7 times seventy weeks is 490 days or 490 years!

By the martyrdom of Christ the sacrifice is accomplished and the temple of Christ's body destroyed. He is to become the new object of adoration and worship, and the Jewish temple is to be destroyed. These seventy weeks begin with the restoration and the rebuilding of Jerusalem, concerning which four edicts were issued by three kings:

The first was issued by Cyrus in the year 536 B.C.; this is recorded in the first chapter of the Book of Ezra. The second edict, with reference to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, is that of Darius of Persia in the year 519 B.C.; this is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. The third is that of Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign during 457 B.C.; this is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. The fourth is that of Artaxerxes in the year 444 B.C.; this is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah.

But Daniel refers especially to the third edict which was issued in the year 457 B.C. Christ was 33 when He was martyred and ascended. When you add 33 to 457, the result is 490, which is the time announced by Daniel for the coming of Christ.

(adapted from Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44)

When Jesus on the Mount of Olives mentions the abomination of desolation in Daniel He is also indicating the fulfilment of prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27. Once this is understood then further insight can be appreciated by further analysis of these key verses.

 

[metis]

There doesn't need to be exact manuscripts for the Bible to be true. Has the Bible Been Diluted by Copies of Copies of Copies? Christian Apologist Lee Strobel Answers

You've deflected away from what you originally posted, which is fine with me because now you know the reality.

I've read Strobel before, although not that particular book. The reality is that he's really more an apologist than a serious theologian as he makes one assumption after another after another...

 

[Skywalker]

You've deflected away from what you originally posted, which is fine with me because now you know the reality.

I've read Strobel before, although not that particular book. The reality is that he's really more an apologist than a serious theologian as he makes one assumption after another after another...

What assumptions does he make? Regarding the Bible and the Bahai, I agree with Strobel that while both the surahs and the psalms talk about the goodness and holiness of God, the psalm seems much more pregnant with meaning. The Arabic surah has a poetic rhythm, however, so does the Hebrew psalm.

 

[Skywalker]

You've deflected away from what you originally posted, which is fine with me because now you know the reality.

I've read Strobel before, although not that particular book. The reality is that he's really more an apologist than a serious theologian as he makes one assumption after another after another...

Jesus provided a historical event-his resurrection-as the test by which we can know his message is true. A resurrection can't happen unless God is a part of it.

 

[metis]

What assumptions does he make? Regarding the Bible and the Bahai, I agree with Strobel that while both the surahs and the psalms talk about the goodness and holiness of God, the psalm seems much more pregnant with meaning. The Arabic surah has a poetic rhythm, however, so does the Hebrew psalm.

Since it was about 20 years ago that I read "The Case For Christ", and since I no longer have the book, I cannot answer you.

 

[metis]

Jesus provided a historical event-his resurrection-as the test by which we can know his message is true. A resurrection can't happen unless God is a part of it.

Do you think that there could be resurrections at different points in time and in different locations? If not, why not?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why would the ressurection of Jesus be symbolic if there were eyewitnesses?

The apostle Paul uses the phrase body of Christ as a symbol of the Church on many occasions in his epistles. The earliest mention of the resurrection in the NT is through Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

IMHO the Gospel resurrection narratives are theological rather than literal history. Taking it as a literal account has many problems.

 

[Muffled]

Believe as you will. But-
You sure had to quit early to avoid seeing
examples.

They say that Satan knows his scripture

Kind of like us atheists who know it better than you.
(Easy peezy)

I believe in taking one bit at a time.

Skipping some that are the same as the previous one lets tak about this one:
7 O LORD, you have deceived me,
and I was deceived;
you are stronger than I,
and you have prevailed.
I have become a laughingstock all the day;

I believe we have Jeremiah speaking claiming he was deceived but the context reveals that he has deceived himself in thinking he was stronger than God and that he could prevail against God.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that that verse is a reference to hell. Sheol is not the grave. The book of Psalms says that the wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Sheol cannot be the grave, because the wicked and the righteous don't go to the same place. I believe that Daniel was talking about hell because he mentioned everlasting contempt.

I believe that is incorrect. The wicked do go into the grave.

I believe the Daniel verse does not refer to the grave (dust of the earth) as the place of contempt.

 

[Muffled]

The apostle Paul uses the phrase body of Christ as a symbol of the Church on many occasions in his epistles. The earliest mention of the resurrection in the NT is through Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

IMHO the Gospel resurrection narratives are theological rather than literal history. Taking it as a literal account has many problems.

I believe I have no problems with what God says.

 

[Audie]

I believe in taking one bit at a time.

Skipping some that are the same as the previous one lets tak about this one:
7 O LORD, you have deceived me,
and I was deceived;
you are stronger than I,
and you have prevailed.
I have become a laughingstock all the day;

I believe we have Jeremiah speaking claiming he was deceived but the context reveals that he has deceived himself in thinking he was stronger than God and that he could prevail against God.

So keep on quoting verses that seem to support your claim and ignore those that dont.

 

[Skywalker]

I believe that is incorrect. The wicked do go into the grave.

I believe the Daniel verse does not refer to the grave (dust of the earth) as the place of contempt.

How could the grave be a place of contempt? I believe that a place of contempt refers to hell. The wicked going to the grave doesn't sound like the meaning of the verse, because it doesn't make sense that the righteous and the wicked go to the same place.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe I have no problems with what God says.

You are assuming God wrote the Gospels and that He intended a literal record of history. Neither assumption can be proved and it is simply a matter of faith.

We can be certain that men wrote the Gospel accounts but have no certainty as to the authors. I believe they were Divinely Inspired and were written down some decades after Jesus was crucified to meet the needs of the emerging churches. They were most likely written by second or third generation Christians who wrote down the stories they heard. There is clear collaboration between the authors of the so called synoptic Gospels Matthew, Mark and Luke.

So I have no problem with what is written either. I just view it through a different lens.

 

[CG Didymus]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a central character in the narrative of Daniel 11:21-35. He was an anti-Christ like figure that was certainly associated with the desecration of the Jewish Temple. However the meaning of Daniel 9:24-27 is controversial and there is no agreement among Christians or the secular scholars who assume prophecy is not possible. One theory amongst secular scholars is Antiochus. Obviously this theory would not fit with a Baha'i view,

In Biblical terms each day is a year,. For example:

Numbers 14:34: The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan

Ezekiel 4:5-6: The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.

Therefore, 7 times seventy weeks is 490 days or 490 years!

By the martyrdom of Christ the sacrifice is accomplished and the temple of Christ's body destroyed. He is to become the new object of adoration and worship, and the Jewish temple is to be destroyed. These seventy weeks begin with the restoration and the rebuilding of Jerusalem, concerning which four edicts were issued by three kings:

The first was issued by Cyrus in the year 536 B.C.; this is recorded in the first chapter of the Book of Ezra. The second edict, with reference to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, is that of Darius of Persia in the year 519 B.C.; this is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. The third is that of Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign during 457 B.C.; this is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. The fourth is that of Artaxerxes in the year 444 B.C.; this is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah.

But Daniel refers especially to the third edict which was issued in the year 457 B.C. Christ was 33 when He was martyred and ascended. When you add 33 to 457, the result is 490, which is the time announced by Daniel for the coming of Christ.

(adapted from Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44)

When Jesus on the Mount of Olives mentions the abomination of desolation in Daniel He is also indicating the fulfilment of prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27. Once this is understood then further insight can be appreciated by further analysis of these key verses.

It's Daniel 8 that I was questioning. Here's a link to a Christian interpretation of these verses...

Let us first see what Daniel 8:3–14 says (NASB; a few phrases have been emphasized in bold for special attention):

3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.
5 While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes.
6 He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath.
7 I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his power.
8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and some of the host and of the stars it cast down to the ground, and trampled upon them.
11 It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.
12 And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?”
14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”​

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's Daniel 8 that I was questioning. Here's a link to a Christian interpretation of these verses...

Let us first see what Daniel 8:3–14 says (NASB; a few phrases have been emphasized in bold for special attention):

3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.
5 While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes.
6 He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath.
7 I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his power.
8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and some of the host and of the stars it cast down to the ground, and trampled upon them.
11 It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.
12 And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?”
14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”​

It is an interesting interpretation of Daniel 8:14 which is the crux of the matter. There’s no agreement among the Christians as to the meaning of this one verse. The rest of Daniel 8:3-14 is straight forward as it’s meaning is made clear through Daniel 8:20-26. It concerns the Persian and Greek Empires.

I have no problem with 8:14 being the 1150 days where the Jewish temple sacrifice was literally disrupted and restored after Antiochus Epiphane’s desecration. But I believe there is more to the verse. Why?

1/ The prophetic books of Daniel and Revelations are interrelated and have considerable overlap. The book of Revelation is prophetic and was probably written about 100 AD.

2/ The figure 2,300 is one of a number of figures in these books including 490, 1,260, 1290, 1335. All these numbers relate to some form of tribulation.

Why do Daniel and Revelation give varying counts of 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 days for the tribulation? | GotQuestions.org

3/ These books concern at least four Empires whose span is within the time frame of centuries, not days and months.

4/ These Empires closely relate to themes of exile and return to the Holy land, desecration and restoration of worship and God’s plan. The Jews only recently returned to their homeland land after WWII.

5/ The Biblical day for a year principle has sound scriptural basis.

Day-year principle - Wikipedia

So Daniel 8:3-14 is part of an historical jig-saw puzzle. 8:3-13 is an important part of it, but 8:14 connects to the larger picture IMHO which takes us well beyond the Greek Empire.

I believe Daniel is sealed until the end times and its up to those who have recognised and follow the Promised one, to explain it.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is an interesting interpretation of Daniel 8:14 which is the crux of the matter. There’s no agreement among the Christians as to the meaning of this one verse. The rest of Daniel 8:3-14 is straight forward as it’s meaning is made clear through Daniel 8:20-26. It concerns the Persian and Greek Empires.

I have no problem with 8:14 being the 1150 days where the Jewish temple sacrifice was literally disrupted and restored after Antiochus Epiphane’s desecration. But I believe there is more to the verse. Why?

1/ The prophetic books of Daniel and Revelations are interrelated and have considerable overlap. The book of Revelation is prophetic and was probably written about 100 AD.

2/ The figure 2,300 is one of a number of figures in these books including 490, 1,260, 1290, 1335. All these numbers relate to some form of tribulation.

Why do Daniel and Revelation give varying counts of 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 days for the tribulation? | GotQuestions.org

3/ These books concern at least four Empires whose span is within the time frame of centuries, not days and months.

4/ These Empires closely relate to themes of exile and return to the Holy land, desecration and restoration of worship and God’s plan. The Jews only recently returned to their homeland land after WWII.

5/ The Biblical day for a year principle has sound scriptural basis.

Day-year principle - Wikipedia

So Daniel 8:3-14 is part of an historical jig-saw puzzle. 8:3-13 is an important part of it, but 8:14 connects to the larger picture IMHO which takes us well beyond the Greek Empire.

I believe Daniel is sealed until the end times and its up to those who have recognised and follow the Promised one, to explain it.

My question is why start the 2300 years with the edict to rebuild Jerusalem in 456BC?