Andres Saenz
Pantheist
Greetings,
Just cerious. Are there any sects within Christianity that flat out reject the Old Testament?
Just cerious. Are there any sects within Christianity that flat out reject the Old Testament?
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Christianity without the Old Testament?
- Thread starter Andres Saenz
- Start date
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure about any modern ones. The Ebionites did, and if there are groups in continuity with them, they would probably continue to reject the OT. However, doing so is weird. For the Christian faith, it's like denying your mother.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
In my conversations with Christians, I have heard them suggest that the "Old Testament" is obsolete...
I don't know what sect that is... nor am I sure if that constitutes a flat out rejection. Since the NT goes on to (mis)quote the prophets of the OT, and claims as fulfilled prophecy many words throught the OT text (including Genesis, Psalms, etc)... it would be hard for them to ignore it.
After all... if they believe they have the new testament... they need it to be "new" relative to SOMETHING...
Andres Saenz
Pantheist
Well does anyone know of a sect that hasn't "flat out rejected" it but has "de-canonized" it?
Either or.
Either or.
Andres Saenz
Pantheist
Not even google has the answers for this one.
You'd think there'd be some mystical sect without it.
You'd think there'd be some mystical sect without it.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
The first sentence of Matthew calls Jesus "son of David"...
Kinda hard to have David without an "old testament".
Andres Saenz
Pantheist
If you take it literal. That's why I said Mystic, lol.
Lucian
Theologian
I would say the modern Gnostics might shun away from many of the OT's passages, or just give a whole new meaning to them.
Gnosticism in modern times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Don't you mean the Marcionists? The Ebionites didn't agree with most of the NT.
Gnosticism in modern times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Don't you mean the Marcionists? The Ebionites didn't agree with most of the NT.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread !
I did a Google search for "Christianity without the Old Testament", and found myself here. It looks like others have similar problems to mine.
My rpoblem is that I just cannot accept the "God" of the Old Testament, but I find the teaching of Jesus attarctive. Because Jesus himself read and taught from what we call the Old Testament, it looks like it is "de rigeur" for Christians, but every time I read the Old Testament, with its god who demands worship like the worst of human despots, changes his mind, demands animal sacrifice, orders genocide and the "First Holocaust" of the Canaanites (Men, women, children and even the animals of the whole population ..... that's a Holocaust at least equal to Hitler's !). And utterly condemns anyone who does not bow down and worship him. Sorry I cannot accept this Old Testament god. Someone else brought up the Gnostics, and I think, as far as the Old Testament is concerned, that the Gnostics were right who proposed that the Old Testament god was a deluded demigod (angel ?) who THOUGHT he was the Supreme Being, but was not, so his creation (This Earth) was flawed. Yaldebaoth is his name, and he is, as Jesus named him, The God Of This World !
I just can't accept this as the Supreme Being ! :no:
Sea Wolf
I did a Google search for "Christianity without the Old Testament", and found myself here. It looks like others have similar problems to mine.
My rpoblem is that I just cannot accept the "God" of the Old Testament, but I find the teaching of Jesus attarctive. Because Jesus himself read and taught from what we call the Old Testament, it looks like it is "de rigeur" for Christians, but every time I read the Old Testament, with its god who demands worship like the worst of human despots, changes his mind, demands animal sacrifice, orders genocide and the "First Holocaust" of the Canaanites (Men, women, children and even the animals of the whole population ..... that's a Holocaust at least equal to Hitler's !). And utterly condemns anyone who does not bow down and worship him. Sorry I cannot accept this Old Testament god. Someone else brought up the Gnostics, and I think, as far as the Old Testament is concerned, that the Gnostics were right who proposed that the Old Testament god was a deluded demigod (angel ?) who THOUGHT he was the Supreme Being, but was not, so his creation (This Earth) was flawed. Yaldebaoth is his name, and he is, as Jesus named him, The God Of This World !
I just can't accept this as the Supreme Being ! :no:
Sea Wolf
esmith
Veteran Member
No sure where you are getting you information from but, in my opinion you are totally wrong:
[FONT="]Ebionites:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Born Jewish or converted to Judaism they kept the Jewish customs and strictly followed the Jewish Law. They say Jesus was born human from a sexual union of Joseph and Mary. Believed God adopted Jesus at his baptism and was the most righteous person on earth. As God's son Jesus had a specific task: to fulfill the Jewish expectations of a messiah by dying for the sins of the world. But this was a Jewish God and a Jewish son, you had to be Jewish to be right with God. Also they believed that people ate meat after it had been sacrificed to atone for their sins and since Jesus died for their sins they did not need to sacrifice anymore; so they became vegetarians. They also believed that Paul was a heretic. The Ebionites may have been one of the earliest Christian sects.
[/FONT]
Sweetvoice
Member
I prefer following the NT only. The NT makes the bible's teaching more practical and suitable to modern times.
Biblestudent_007
Active Member
The OT is absolutely necessary for having a proper understanding the NT.
The closest I can think of were the ancient Marcionites who believed that the god of the Old Testament (who they rejected) could not be the same as the god of the New Testament. They had a point. The Old Testament god was quite sexist (the wife shall cleave to the husband and obey him), prejudice (if there is a chosen people, it means that everybody else back then was unchosen), and a mass killer of children (the last plague on the Egyptians). Most atrocities by Christians in history have been based on Old Testament readings for a reason.
You have to wonder if the Jewish apostles just tried to maintain their Jewishness by keeping the Old Testament.
You have to wonder if the Jewish apostles just tried to maintain their Jewishness by keeping the Old Testament.
Jesus saves us from separation from God, Who is Life, Love and Light, and He saves us from slavery to sin and death. This was the universal opinion of all Christians for over a thousand years before Anselm of Canterbury introduced his previously unheard-of teachings (substitutionary atonement), which John Calvin later took one logical step further (penal substitution).
roger1440
I do stuff
What main stream Christianity rejects is Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament. Some church fathers even went so far as to say the Old Testament is Christian scripture not Jewish scripture. I believe some of the early church fathers were on the right track but went in the wrong direction. The canonical gospels were meant for Jews not Gentiles. The gospels used a literary form similar to Midrash. The intended audience (Jews) knew these stories were allegory. The Gentiles had interpreted these stories as literal fact. The battle lines were drawn.
You might find this interesting.
The Epistle of Barnabas
The Epistle reinterprets many of the laws of the Torah. For example, the prohibition on eating pork is not to be taken literally, but rather forbids the people to live like swine, who supposedly grunt when hungry but are silent when full: likewise, the people are not to pray to God when they are in need but ignore him when they are satisfied. Similarly, the prohibition on eating rabbit means that the people are not to behave in a promiscuous manner, and the prohibition on eating weasel is actually to be interpreted as a prohibition of oral sex, based on the mistaken belief that weasels copulate via the mouth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_BarnabasThe Epistle reinterprets many of the laws of the Torah. For example, the prohibition on eating pork is not to be taken literally, but rather forbids the people to live like swine, who supposedly grunt when hungry but are silent when full: likewise, the people are not to pray to God when they are in need but ignore him when they are satisfied. Similarly, the prohibition on eating rabbit means that the people are not to behave in a promiscuous manner, and the prohibition on eating weasel is actually to be interpreted as a prohibition of oral sex, based on the mistaken belief that weasels copulate via the mouth
Any proof that the Jewish Christians interpreted the Gospels as purely symbolic? This seems absurd, keeping in mind that the Apostles were preaching Jesus' Resurrection as an actual event.